AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I was not suggesting indoctrination, just reading the Christian bible with an open mind to allow the word of God to reveal the truth.  If the truth is revealed to us by the message of the bible, how could you possibly discover that truth by scientific investigation alone?  You will never discover God's love in scientific investigation.  And you will not find it in the Qur'an either.

You're missing the point. You've just assumed that the Bible is true, and that the problem is that people don't approach it with an "open mind". You need to back up a bit - the question concerns what method you use to determine that the Bible is true in the first place, and for that matter that the Qur'an isn't. 

And no, neither you personal incredulity about the facts we know about the world and nor your "faith" constitute methods.

[Alan Burns]

just to note that you are begging the question that the truth you are talking about exists. Why do you use so many logical fallacies?

Is it a fallacy to say that I have discovered the reality of God's love?

[Gordon]

Is it a fallacy to say that I have discovered the reality of God's love?

That depends on the arguments you use to support your claims of discovery: and to date they include begging the question (as NS points out) and your oft noted descent into personal incredulity (among other fallacies).

So, yes - your 'discovery' looks to be based on fallacious reasoning.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Is it a fallacy to say that I have discovered the reality of God's love?

Yes. Believing and discovering are not the same thing - if you want to elevate the former to the latter, then just asserting it to be so is fallacious.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

You're missing the point. You've just assumed that the Bible is true, and that the problem is that people don't approach it with an "open mind". You need to back up a bit - the question concerns what method you use to determine that the Bible is true in the first place

Having never approached the Bible from the viewpoint of a non believer, I can't give a personal witness to discovering its truth.  I can only quote many personal testimonies from other people who have come to know God through these divinely inspired words.

So from the sceptic point of view, how could you show that the message of the New Testament does not reveal the truth?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Having never approached the Bible from the viewpoint of a non believer, I can't give a personal witness to discovering its truth.  I can only quote many personal testimonies from other people who have come to know God through these divinely inspired words.

So from the sceptic point of view, how could you show that the message of the New Testament does not reveal the truth?

How could you show that the message of the Qu'ran does not reveal the truth?

[Alan Burns]

AB,

How could you show that the message of the Qu'ran does not reveal the truth?

If the Bible does reveal the truth, your question has no relevance.  There is only one truth.

[SusanDoris]

If the Bible does reveal the truth, your question has no relevance.  There is only one truth.

As usual, you have avoided answering the question.

[Alan Burns]

As usual, you have avoided answering the question.

I know of several Muslim converts who will testify that the Qu'ran does not reveal the reality of God's love which they discovered in reading the New Testament.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

If the Bible does reveal the truth, your question has no relevance.  There is only one truth.

If it does, you're probably right. How would you propose to demonstrate that "if"?

Do you even comprehend the problem you've given yourself here?   

[Nearly Sane]

Is it a fallacy to say that I have discovered the reality of God's love?

Now you are misrepresenting what was said and begging the question again.

[Gordon]

Having never approached the Bible from the viewpoint of a non believer, I can't give a personal witness to discovering its truth.  I can only quote many personal testimonies from other people who have come to know God through these divinely inspired words.

So from the sceptic point of view, how could you show that the message of the New Testament does not reveal the truth?

Ignoring the NPF, might it be that you and these others are quite simply wrong - and even here your 'have come to know God through these divinely inspired words' has you using even more fallacies.

[torridon]

I know of several Muslim converts who will testify that the Qu'ran does not reveal the reality of God's love which they discovered in reading the New Testament.

Being selective again Alan, there will be many muslims claiming the opposite - Islam is growing at the expense of Christianity not just because of birth rates and such like, it is fuelled by faith conversions which are overwhelmingly in the direction of Christianity to Islam. You need to take your 'I am always right' confirmation bias blinkers off to see things as they actually are.

[torridon]

I was not suggesting indoctrination, just reading the Christian bible with an open mind to allow the word of God to reveal the truth.  If the truth is revealed to us by the message of the bible, how could you possibly discover that truth by scientific investigation alone?  You will never discover God's love in scientific investigation.  And you will not find it in the Qur'an either.

Your bias showing again.  Maybe you never read the Qur'an with a similarly 'open' mind; I've certainly met muslims full of elation and joy gained through their faith rather like you find through yours.  A journey to personal enlightenment is personal, it seems, there is no one-size fits all route as every person is different.

[Sebastian Toe]

I know of several Muslim converts who will testify that the Qu'ran does not reveal the reality of God's love which they discovered in reading the New Testament.

And here is proof of someone who feels better for making the opposite journey.

https://www.onfaith.co/onfaith/2010/08/09/confessions-of-a-convert-to-islam/5094

So now you know that there are others who do not feel the way that you do.

[Alan Burns]

And here is proof of someone who feels better for making the opposite journey.

https://www.onfaith.co/onfaith/2010/08/09/confessions-of-a-convert-to-islam/5094

So now you know that there are others who do not feel the way that you do.

An interesting testimony from someone who genuinely sought God, but was disillusioned with Christianity, mainly because of corruption within the church by people who were exploiting it for their own use rather than following Christ's teachings.

I must admit that I am puzzled as to how the Muslim faith accepts Jesus and Mary as part of their faith, but fails to recognise the central message that Jesus is our Saviour.  The Qu'ran may be full of poetic verse about how to live our lives, but fails to grasp the central concept that: God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

An interesting testimony from someone who genuinely sought God, but was disillusioned with Christianity, mainly because of corruption within the church by people who were exploiting it for their own use rather than following Christ's teachings.

I must admit that I am puzzled as to how the Muslim faith accepts Jesus and Mary as part of their faith, but fails to recognise the central message that Jesus is our Saviour.  The Qu'ran may be full of poetic verse about how to live our lives, but fails to grasp the central concept that: God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

It's perfectly possible to "grasp" a claim without believing it to be true - especially when people like you fail to provide a method of any kind to indicate that it is true. (And no, typing something in bold does not constitute an argument.)

[Dicky Underpants]

My method would involve reading the scriptures with an open mind, allowing the word of God to enlighten you to the truth.

I originally did that when I was but a callow lad and accepted what the scriptures were supposed to be saying. Later in life, I still tried to read with an open mind, but was met with a mass of irreconcilable contradictions.

The clincher for my unbelief, though - as I've  mentioned before - was the total absence of any sense of a caring God in my lowest moments, when a sense of such a presence might have made a considerable difference.

[torridon]

I must admit that I am puzzled as to how the Muslim faith accepts Jesus and Mary as part of their faith, but fails to recognise the central message that Jesus is our Saviour.  The Qu'ran may be full of poetic verse about how to live our lives, but fails to grasp the central concept that: God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

I think the take home message is that spiritual bliss can arise out of the practice of a faith; the particular detailed content of the underlying beliefs to an extent are not so important.  When one of my muslim friends came back from haaj, she was as if walking on air for weeks afterwards, so uplifted was she by the experience. I've never been on a haaj myself although I have done a catholic equivalent - I went to Lourdes a couple of months ago, took part in all the candlelight Marian processions, and I saw reflected in the faces of the pilgrims there the same devotional peacefulness that I saw in my muslim friend.  My conclusion is that it must be the practice of a faith that delivers, rather the content of the beliefs.

[bluehillside Retd.]

torri,

I think the take home message is that spiritual bliss can arise out of the practice of a faith; the particular detailed content of the underlying beliefs to an extent are not so important.  When one of my muslim friends came back from haaj, she was as if walking on air for weeks afterwards, so uplifted was she by the experience. I've never been on a haaj myself although I have done a catholic equivalent - I went to Lourdes a couple of months ago, took part in all the candlelight Marian processions, and I saw reflected in the faces of the pilgrims there the same devotional peacefulness that I saw in my muslim friend.  My conclusion is that it must be the practice of a faith that delivers, rather the content of the beliefs.

I wonder if the pleasurable feelings from thinking about God, Allah etc at an impressionable age aren't embedded and then triggered later on whenever the same thought occurs as a self-induced dopamine kick reward sensation. All the subject has to do is to create a narrative that he's experiencing "God's love" or similar when it happens, and Robert's yer aunty's husband.   

I remember for example the thrill of just thinking of Father Christmas when I was a nipper - it doesn't seem much of a stretch to me to think that something similar could happen in later life for those who still believe in their various myths. 

[Sebastian Toe]

I must admit that I am puzzled as to how the Muslim faith accepts Jesus and Mary as part of their faith, but fails to recognise the central message that Jesus is our Saviour. 

And equally there will be Muslims who are puzzled as to why you fail to grasp that Mohammed was the last Prophet sent to mankind.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

I must admit that I am puzzled as to how the Muslim faith accepts Jesus and Mary as part of their faith, but fails to recognise the central message that Jesus is our Saviour. 

And equally there will be Muslims who are puzzled as to why you fail to grasp that Mohammed was the last Prophet sent to mankind.

There is no equally unless Mohammed is also part of the Christian faith.

[bluehillside Retd.]

SOTS,

There is no equally unless Mohammed is also part of the Christian faith.

Yes there is - they're both faith claims, and epistemically therefore the same.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

Yes there is - they're both faith claims, and epistemically therefore the same.

Which just shows that you don't understand the point Alan Burns was making in his #1015. Feel free to prove me wrong below...

[Nearly Sane]

Which just shows that you don't understand the point Alan Burns was making in his #1015. Feel free to prove me wrong below...

Shifting the burden of proof (which I now hear to the sound of Ultravox, Dancing with Tears in My Eyes)again. Your claim, your fallacy