AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence

[Sebastian Toe]

There is no equally unless Mohammed is also part of the Christian faith.

Thev"equally" referred to the fact that both parties would be puzzled regarding the claims of the other. Not the veracity or otherwise of the claims themselves.

[bluehillside Retd.]

SOTS,

Which just shows that you don't understand the point Alan Burns was making in his #1015. Feel free to prove me wrong below...

You really do love this shifting of the burden of proof thing don't you. If you think I don't understand something AB said then it's for you to demonstrate that, not for me to falsify your unargued assertion. 

[Alan Burns]

Thev"equally" referred to the fact that both parties would be puzzled regarding the claims of the other. Not the veracity or otherwise of the claims themselves.

So if we leave the word "puzzled" out and just stick to the facts. 
Christianity came before Islam, but while Islam accepts some teachings of Jesus, it ignores crucifixion, claiming it never happened, but without any justification for doing so.  We once had some Muslim women visiting our local church.  All was going well until they came to a crucifix, when one of the women pointed to it and said out loud "That is a lie".  I admire the sincerity, morality and devoutness in the Muslim faith, but I could never regard Islam on an equal footing with Christianity.

[Gordon]

So if we leave the word "puzzled" out and just stick to the facts. 
Christianity came before Islam, but while Islam accepts some teachings of Jesus, it ignores crucifixion, claiming it never happened, but without any justification for doing so.

Are we talking the crucifixion story of the resurrection story here? Many might agree that there may well have been a person on which the Jesus character is portrayed, and that this person was crucified, but not that the resurrection claim is justified by the anecdotal accounts in the NT (given the risks of mistakes or lies in these accounts).   

We once had some Muslim women visiting our local church.  All was going well until they came to a crucifix, when one of the women pointed to it and said out loud "That is a lie".

They may have a point though in that in all anecdotal accounts there is a risk of lies (and mistakes), so it would be essential to exclude these: how did you counter their doubts?

I admire the sincerity, morality and devoutness in the Muslim faith, but I could never regard Islam on an equal footing with Christianity.

That would be due to your personal biases: no doubt Muslims would have a similar view of Christianity.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

...just stick to the facts.

...but while Islam accepts some teachings of Jesus, it ignores crucifixion, claiming it never happened, but without any justification for doing so

That's not a fact. While Muslims may well recognise that lots of people were crucified, their justification for not recognising the resurrection is that there's insufficient reason and evidence to think it to be true. A Muslim may equally say that, as you fail to recognise Mohammed's ascent on a winged horse, he could never recognise Christianity as having an equal footing to Islam.

[Sebastian Toe]

So if we leave the word "puzzled" out and just stick to the facts. 
Christianity came before Islam, but while Islam accepts some teachings of Jesus, it ignores crucifixion, claiming it never happened, but without any justification for doing so.

Here is justification, which if you had read and understood the Quran with a open heart and mind, you would have understood.



Having explained so many general principles on the subject of life and death, it was not necessary that the Holy Quran should speak specifically of the death of Jesus. Nevertheless, Almighty God has particularly mentioned Jesus’ death in the Quran. When the Jews succeeded in their plans to have Jesus sentenced to crucifixion, he prayed to God to be delivered from this fate, and was answered by Him thus :

"O Jesus, I will cause you to die, and exalt you to My presence, and clear you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve till the day of Judgment." (3:54)
Here God made with Jesus four promises:

"Cause you to die" (tawaffa), i.e., Jesus would not be killed by the Jews, but would die a natural death.
"Exalt you in My presence" (raf‘a), i.e., he would not be crucified, which the Jews sought to do to prove him accursed, but rather he would receive Divine nearness. In fact, raf‘a is the opposite of wad‘a, the latter meaning disgrace and the former meaning honouring.
"Clear you of those who disbelieve" (tathir), i.e., he would be cleared of the Jews’ allegations against him, as he was by the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
"Make those who follow you above those who disbelieve till the day of Judgement", i.e. his followers would forever have the upper hand over his rejectors.
The above verse proves that Jesus has died, for raf‘a (exaltation to God’s presence) is attained only after death when all the material veils have been removed. Every righteous person is granted raf‘a to God after his death. The Holy Prophet has said:

"When a believer nears death, angels come to him. So if he is righteous, they say: ‘O pure soul! leave, you were in a pure body’ … So that pure soul comes out, then they take it to the heavens and its gates are opened for it." (Mishkat).
Hence, whenever a righteous individual dies, the angels take his soul up to heaven. The very same happened in Jesus’ case, so that after his death it was his soul that was raised to heaven, and he joined the ranks of the righteous among the dead.

Thus God fulfilled all the above promises in order: He rescued Jesus from the hands of the Jews, and eventually granted him a natural death; after his death, God honoured his soul with Divine nearness; He cleared him of the Jews’ allegations against him through the Holy Prophet Muhammad (may peace and the blessings of Allah be upon him) and He gave Jesus’ followers the upper hand over his rejectors

[Alan Burns]

Here is justification, which if you had read and understood the Quran with a open heart and mind, you would have understood. .......

Yes, I understand what the Quran says about Jesus being spared from crucifixion.  But I am not aware of any historical evidence to back it up.  (In addition to the eye witness accounts in the Gospels, there are Roman records which back up the story of Jesus' crucifixion.) It conveniently allows Jesus to be categorised as a prophet, rather than a saviour or redeemer, thus allowing Muhammad to assume the role of a superior prophet without having to sacrifice his own life.

[Gordon]

Yes, I understand what the Quran says about Jesus being spared from crucifixion.  But I am not aware of any historical evidence to back it up.  (In addition to the eye witness accounts in the Gospels, there are Roman records which back up the story of Jesus' crucifixion.)

The gospel accounts are solely anecdotal though, and without excluding the risks of mistakes or lies they aren't reliable evidence of historical fact. What Roman records are you referring to?

It conveniently allows Jesus to be categorised as a prophet, rather than a saviour or redeemer, thus allowing Muhammad to assume the role of a superior prophet without having to sacrifice his own life.

They might say that you Christians have conveniently over-egged the pudding when it comes to Jesus and that by closing updates to your holy book by around the 4th century CE you missed the superior prophet yet to come by a couple of centuries or so.

You can't both be right, but you can both be wrong.

[wigginhall]

Yes, I understand what the Quran says about Jesus being spared from crucifixion.  But I am not aware of any historical evidence to back it up.  (In addition to the eye witness accounts in the Gospels, there are Roman records which back up the story of Jesus' crucifixion.) It conveniently allows Jesus to be categorised as a prophet, rather than a saviour or redeemer, thus allowing Muhammad to assume the role of a superior prophet without having to sacrifice his own life.

Roman records?  Do you mean Tacitus?   I don't think there are any surviving Roman records about anything, except maybe tax. 

[Sebastian Toe]

Yes, I understand what the Quran says about Jesus being spared from crucifixion.  But I am not aware of any historical evidence to back it up.  (In addition to the eye witness accounts in the Gospels, there are Roman records which back up the story of Jesus' crucifixion.) It conveniently allows Jesus to be categorised as a prophet, rather than a saviour or redeemer, thus allowing Muhammad to assume the role of a superior prophet without having to sacrifice his own life.

You asked about justification. I gave it to you. Now all you are doing again (as you do for your 'soul' assertions) is moving the goalposts.  Do you have a contract with Pickfords?