Po-faced Christians and Halloween

[Harrowby Hall]

 for the church sending out fliers inviting kids to dress up as animals as an alternative to Halloween, all I can say is, "What utter prats".   Either 'do' Halloween or do nothing.

But Halloween isn't Christian. Therefore the churches can't do it. Halloween is the day before All Hallows (All Saints) it was the day when evil spirits were abroad. On the stroke of midnight the holy day begins and the evil spirits disappear.

[Harrowby Hall]

HH
Pretty sure WE in the UK 'imported' this from the USA !!!

So what?

How is this relevant to the large scale ripping off of children (and their parents) by cynical supermarkets?

We imported turkeys and potatoes and tobacco and syphilis from the New World. Some imports were good, some bad.

[trippymonkey]

MMM
WELL How many more of your 'facts' are you getting INcorrect?

[Brownie]

But Halloween isn't Christian. Therefore the churches can't do it. Halloween is the day before All Hallows (All Saints) it was the day when evil spirits were abroad. On the stroke of midnight the holy day begins and the evil spirits disappear.

I know Halloween is not Christian and that today is All Hallows Eve, HH.  I used to go to a really lovely service at my church on All Saints day.

However do you seriously believe that evil spirits are abroad tonight any more than at any other time of the year?

Churches who take a stand, on religious grounds, against children having some fun on Halloween are advertising it by offering an alternative party, that's why I think they are being ridiculous.  Better to do nothing.  The kids aren't going to be attacked by evil spirits if they dress up in Harry Potter-type costumes and have pumpkins.  Or if they are, it will happen at any other time.

What I don't like is the recent trend for people to dress up as road kill, serial killers or their victims, that is going too far imo, macabre in the extreme.  Lots of people have said the same and I have a feeling the trend will die out.  Frankenstein's monster, a few vampires and werewolves will suffice.

Churches like the one mentioned by Prof D in his OP are few and far between.  Most make no comment at all on the subject because they see it for what it is, a bit of fun.  I'm saying that as someone who doesn't like Halloween that much.

[Sebastian Toe]

Yet our local CofE church deeply disapproves. They sent out a flier last week asking parents to send their children to an 'animal themed' party tonight instead - dress as your 'favourite animal'.

Sounds like that they're in to animalism! How very odd.

[Harrowby Hall]

I know Halloween is not Christian and that today is All Hallows Eve, HH.  I used to go to a really lovely service at my church on All Saints day.

However do you seriously believe that evil spirits are abroad tonight any more than at any other time of the year?

Brownie

I am merely stating the fairy tale element behind this commercial scam.

You appear to accept that evil spirits are no more than fairy tale but don't apply the same quality of thought when it comes to events inside churches.

[trippymonkey]

The REAL question is, for me, whether evil spirits exist at all & what the heck is God doing allowing them 'out' at ANY time.

Can anyone prove they exist at all?

Nick

[ProfessorDavey]

But Halloween isn't Christian. Therefore the churches can't do it. Halloween is the day before All Hallows (All Saints) it was the day when evil spirits were abroad. On the stroke of midnight the holy day begins and the evil spirits disappear.

But it is - or rather like so many festivals it is the Christianisation of an earlier festival. It is no less Christian than Christmas eve. That you indicate its etymology as linked intrinsically to another Christian festival (all hallows) rather proves the point.

[ProfessorDavey]

HH
Pretty sure WE in the UK 'imported' this from the USA !!!

More complicated than that - Halloween is celtic christian (indeed even the name I believe is Scottish in derivation). It has always been celebrated in the UK - certainly was in my youth. For reasons I don't understand it became much more of a big thing in the USA, with derivation of traditions (so carving turnips in Scotland became pumpkins in the USA). We have recently imported back the USA version of Halloween to augment ours. Certainly it is a much bigger thing now than 40 years ago, but so what - it is a bit of fun. If people want to enjoy themselves on the last night in October and spend a bit on tat, so what.

[floo]

Tonight is Halloween and all round my local area knots of excited small children (carefully watched by their parents) are enjoying getting dressed up as skeletons, witches, ghouls etc and knocking on their neighbours' doors in the hope of some sweets. Entirely innocent and good natured.

Yet our local CofE church deeply disapproves. They sent out a flier last week asking parents to send their children to an 'animal themed' party tonight instead - dress as your 'favourite animal'. All very odd as they've never extended a general invite to a party before. Clearly this is an attempt to get kids to turn their back on Halloween and do something that the church doesn't disapprove of, presumably because they consider Halloween somehow 'ungodly'.

Why so po-faced - can't they simply let kids enjoy halloween?

Just imagine the outcry from the Daily Mail types if non religious people tried to hi-jack Christmas events and turn them into an 'animal themed' party.

Not all Christians dislike Halloween. My 'born again' parents  had no objection to my sisters and I pretending to be ghosts and witches on Halloween.  I very much dislike the unpleasant American import, 'trick or treat', aspect of it, which we didn't have when I was a kid or when my children were young. I will not answer the door if kids come round begging for sweets.

[Harrowby Hall]

I have no problem with people having fun. I don't have much of a problem with Halloween itself - I remember sporadic attempts at its celebration when I was a child.

My objection (and I may not be entirely rational about this) is that in its modern form it is a creation of the retail industry - possibly to recoup income lost as a result of the increased controls on the sale of fireworks. We have been manipulated into celebrating Halloween. Looking at the quality (low) and volume (high) of merchandise in supermarkets, Halloween now makes a significant contribution to the bottom line.

Evidence for this? Go to France - a society with no history of Halloween. Toussaints is a day when people remember their family members who have died. People visit cemeteries and lay flowers on tombs and graves. But over the past 20 years or so, starting in supermarkets, Halloween has become big business.

I was in Tesco yesterday and saw the piles of pumpkins being sold at knock down prices. I wonder how many of the pumpkins sold over the last view days have had any of their interiors used for food?

[Anchorman]

Sounds like that they're in to animalism! How very odd.

If I'd had kids, I'd have dressed them up as werewolves and vampire bats. They are, after all, animals.

[floo]

If I'd had kids, I'd have dressed them up as werewolves and vampire bats. They are, after all, animals.

Humans are an animal species.

[Nearly Sane]

Humans are an animal species.

I think you missed Anchorman's point

[Gonnagle]

Dear Floo,

Humans are an animal species.

Ah yes!! But we can change into Werewolves or Vampires, other animal species can't, or maybe they can, can a dolphin change into a wolf, what about a Hamster changing into a Vampire, blood sucking Hamsters

But then we have real horror creatures that man can turn into, Politicians, poor creatures whose fate it is to wander the earth unable to answer a straight question! Tis true, they actually go to school to learn to avoid questions.

https://www.sundaypost.com/news/political-news/mhairi-black-admits-mps-are-taught-to-avoid-answering-questions/

Gonnagle.

[Brownie]

Well it's all over for another year now and I don't suppose we are any the worse for it.  No-one came here trick or treating.

Pumpkin soup is apparently really good!  I've never made it before but am going out this morning and if I see some leftover pumpkin in the supermarket (which is most likely), I might give it a go.

It's interesting how Halloween is celebrated in different parts of the country.  Floo said they did it in Guernsey when she was a child.  Then there are parts of Scotland.  I once heard it started off here in East Anglia.   Trick or treating has never been a big thing where I live but some kids had themed parties, eg the cubs, and if someone's birthday was around that time.

[ad_orientem]

My objection to Halloween, especially trick or treating, is that it's a horrible American import.

[floo]

My objection to Halloween, especially trick or treating, is that it's a horrible American import.

That is a moan many of us have about the event!

[ProfessorDavey]

My objection to Halloween, especially trick or treating, is that it's a horrible American import.

A number of people have made that pout but I think it is much more complicated than that.

I simply isn't the case that no-one celebrated Halloween until the recent import of an american approach. It isn't like Thanksgiving (for example) which is an exclusively US thing and never part of our culture. Halloween has always been part of our culture - when I was a kid it was celebrated and marked. The difference is that it has become much more prominent and we have adopted certain elements that we might perceive as american, but are actually closely linked to our own more UK-centric approach. So others have mentioned customs that are really very similar to trick or treat and pumpkin carving from UK custom.

So rather than a lock, stock and barrel import of something alien to our culture I think we have adopted the USA customs because they align with our own less prominent customs of celebrating Halloween from years ago. And that includes trick or treat, although we tended not to use the term.

So sure the term trick or treat is american, but the custom of getting dressed up and knocking on doors looking for 'rewards' is way older than the modern USA trick or treat. Indeed the origins are probably British, albeit under the name guising (see above) or souling.

[ippy]

I don't mind Halloween celebration that much, it's a bit of fun, all I do mind about it is it's yet more Americanisation of our unique little old UK.

I'm not anti American, I just wish they would keep their ideas of what they think is culture to themselves, why do we have to follow them when it would be so much better for them if it was visa versa?

ippy

[Sebastian Toe]

I don't mind Halloween celebration that much, it's a bit of fun, all I do mind about it is it's yet more Americanisation of our unique little old UK.

I'm not anti American, I just wish they would keep their ideas of what they think is culture to themselves, why do we have to follow them when it would be so much better for them if it was visa versa?

ippy

How would you suggest that they keep those things to themselves?
Then in the very same sentence you want them to adopt our ideas because it would be better for them. How patronising is that?

Ps, we don't have to follow them, you do know that, don't you?

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't mind Halloween celebration that much, it's a bit of fun, all I do mind about it is it's yet more Americanisation of our unique little old UK.

I'm not anti American, I just wish they would keep their ideas of what they think is culture to themselves, why do we have to follow them when it would be so much better for them if it was visa versa?

ippy

What you see as the American idea of Halloween is merely a mirror reflected back onto older British cultural traditions. As I've already said the American Trick or Treat is really just the older British guising or souling renamed and updated. Likewise carving pumpkins which dates back to the Jack-o-lanterns and as a Halloween custom was seen in both England and Ireland well before America. The difference being the vegetable (or is it a fruit). The Americans adopted the pumpkin whereas it used to be a turnip more often in Britain. But again this is merely an updating of a older and non-american culture rather than an entirely new cultural tradition somehow imposed on Britain.

But Seb Toe is also correct - you can't impose a new culture unless people want to adopt that culture. In the case of Halloween it has always been in our culture, in recent years we have merely brought it back to the fore. That's entirely different to perhaps trying to get the British to adopt Thanksgiving, and entirely alien custom - however much marketing push there was I doubt that would be anything other than entirely niche.

[Gordon]

Halloween has come and gone - next up is the infernal monotony of Christmas, which doesn't even have the benefit that Halloween has of being over in a day.

[Aruntraveller]

Halloween has come and gone - next up is the infernal monotony of Christmas, which doesn't even have the benefit that Halloween has of being over in a day.

Oh I'm liking you more and more Gordon. Prof D will be along shortly to tell you that you are a whingeing misery guts. I agree. Let's have more of it. Play on drab fiddle, play on.

[Gordon]

Oh I'm liking you more and more Gordon. Prof D will be along shortly to tell you that you are a whingeing misery guts. I agree. Let's have more of it. Play on drab fiddle, play on.

I'm not in the 'humbug' camp, Trent - I can cope with and even moderately enjoy the silliness aspects for a few days: but it seems to start so early a drag on relentlessly for weeks, and I simply get bored with it long before the due date.

In addition, although since retirement every day is a holiday, in my working days I'd far rather have had the holiday time when there was at least a chance the sun might shine.