Po-faced Christians and Halloween

[Gonnagle]

Dear Gordon,

Haud the bus, whit aboot bonny night ( have the damn yankees stolen that from us ) but then elf and tufty have taken most of the fun out of that, you can't have a bonny oot on the backcourt anymore, once upon a time Misses Mcgilicuddy knew exactly where her brand new wooden garden fencing had gone the day after bonny night ( sorry for our English cousins, Guy Fawkes night, some Tim trying to blow up our houses of Parliament, well that's the story I grew up with ).

A rich night where yer dug had to be kept indoors, a night for knowing how to siphon petrol out of a car ( just to get yer bonny going ) a night where all the parents ( usually male ) knew exactly how to stack a fifteen foot bonny, a night when every kid had a box of bangers in their back pocket, a night when the kids dared you to hold the banger fizzing away until the very last minute, a night when yer Mammy feed all the kids in the street with her home made cakes a night when every fireman knew he was onto overtime.

Please to remember the fifth of November, lightup the sky with standard fireworks posters of a certain age will remember that advert, Halloween was for the weans, bonny night was for the hooligan of all ages.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Thanks for that Gonnagle and for any atheists here......Never fool with fireworks......they can cause serious burns.

[Anchorman]

Personally, I can do without Guy Fawkes night - which really has nothing to do with Scotland, since we were separate when he tried a vast redocaration in Westminster, and, to be honest, we didn't really miss James VI. I simply loath fireworks. If they were confined to one day in one place, fine - but idiots letting the damn things off at night for weeks beforehand means that I'm effectively confined to quarters for two weeks before the fifth - the noise seriously disorients me and affects my mobility. Heaven knows how some of my guide dog owning friends cope.

[Hope]

Tonight is Halloween and all round my local area knots of excited small children (carefully watched by their parents) are enjoying getting dressed up as skeletons, witches, ghouls etc and knocking on their neighbours' doors in the hope of some sweets. Entirely innocent and good natured.

Yet our local CofE church deeply disapproves. They sent out a flier last week asking parents to send their children to an 'animal themed' party tonight instead - dress as your 'favourite animal'. All very odd as they've never extended a general invite to a party before. Clearly this is an attempt to get kids to turn their back on Halloween and do something that the church doesn't disapprove of, presumably because they consider Halloween somehow 'ungodly'.

Why so po-faced - can't they simply let kids enjoy halloween?

Just imagine the outcry from the Daily Mail types if non religious people tried to hi-jack Christmas events and turn them into an 'animal themed' party.

PD, I think one reason why the church has chosen to do this is because a number of parents - both Christians and non-Christians - have complained over the years about the treatment of certain parts of their communities by young people over the Hallowe'en period - such a houses being egged, unpleasant things being shoved through front door letter boxes, abuse being hurled at them - originally by teenagers, but increasingly being copied by younger children - generally not with parents or adults.

[Hope]

Well I bloody hate Halloween. Not for any religious reasons. Just for the sheer unadulterated, commercialised American-ness of it.

We've already got Bonfire Night as a homegrown tradition - do we have to have this faux, good neighbourly nonsense where I am supposed to supply sweets to unknown children.

Try that any other time of the year and see where it gets you.... 

Trent, Hallowe'en is very much a home-grown (or at least a European-grown) festival.  Even the pumpkins is a European practice.  The modern practice of trick or treating is an American tradition, but the frightening get-ups and pumpkin lights have been around since long before 'commercial American-ness'.  It was believed that they would ward off the evil spirits that were thought to do the rounds at Hallowe'en (or All Hallows Eve).  All Hallows Day (today - Tuesday) was and is the day that the church remember those who died in the faith ('hallows' is another word for 'saint' -

hallows (n.) in All-Hallows, a survival of hallow in the noun sense of "holy personage, saint," attested from Old English haligra but little used after c. 1500. Hallowmas "All-saints" is first attested late 14c.

Dictionary.com): the evening before was thought to be the day that the evil spirits were all allowed to do their worst.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jim,

 

If they were confined to one day in one place, fine

I am with you there old son, one day to celebrate, if only we could do the same for Christmas, I like Christmas it is the other 364 days we use to build up to it I hate.

Gonnagle.

[Hope]

Halloween has come and gone - next up is the infernal monotony of Christmas, which doesn't even have the benefit that Halloween has of being over in a day.

And what 'over in a day' does the 5 to 8 week run-up to Hallowe'en count as, Gordon?  We had Hallowe'en stuff in the shops back in late August.

[Gordon]

And what 'over in a day' does the 5 to 8 week run-up to Hallowe'en count as, Gordon?  We had Hallowe'en stuff in the shops back in late August.

It seems to be less 'in your face' than Xmas I suppose: there are no holidays involved and it tends to involve mostly just the younger kids - this year my 14 year old grandson wanted nothing to do with it whereas his 10 year old sister did. In addition, whereas from mid-December onwards the local Tesco plays Xmas music until it sickens, they don't play the likes of 'Monster Mash' or 'Werewolves of London'  relentlessly at Halloween.

Thus Xmas is unavoidably intrusive whereas Halloween isn't.

[Alan Burns]

But it is - or rather like so many festivals it is the Christianisation of an earlier festival. It is no less Christian than Christmas eve. That you indicate its etymology as linked intrinsically to another Christian festival (all hallows) rather proves the point.

But unlike Christmas eve, it actually detracts from the real Christian festival of All Saints.  How many Halloweeners actually know that they are celebrating the eve of All Saints day?

[ProfessorDavey]

But unlike Christmas eve, it actually detracts from the real Christian festival of All Saints.  How many Halloweeners actually know that they are celebrating the eve of All Saints day?

Wrong way of looking at it Alan.

Halloween is the event - sure a few hard core Christians celebrate All Saints, but for the general population Halloween is the celebration and All Saints an irrelevance. Most people who enjoy Halloween aren't practicing Christians so their celebration on 31st October doesn't detract from anything of relevance to them.

Last night I saw all sorts of people out on the streets enjoying Halloween - today, are they all off celebrating All Saints day - nope.

[Brownie]

Very few, I would think, Alan, but very few know much about Easter.  I've heard people say that Good Friday is Easter and as for "Easter Saturday", ie the day before Easter, it's commonly called that now.  Let's face it, most people aren't practicing Christians so why should they know?

However I am pretty sure kids who enjoy Halloween aren't in touch with evil spirits, they are just having some fun with a Potter-like bit of fantasy.

I do understand what Hope says about people objecting to menacing youngsters wearing horrible masks, some of whom demand money and commit petty vandalism when they go out trick or treating.  That's pretty nasty, if I lived somewhere like that I wouldn't answer the door.  Most don't behave badly though and small children are accompanied by adults or older siblings.

[Hope]

It seems to be less 'in your face' than Xmas I suppose: there are no holidays involved and it tends to involve mostly just the younger kids - this year my 14 year old grandson wanted nothing to do with it whereas his 10 year old sister did. In addition, whereas from mid-December onwards the local Tesco plays Xmas music until it sickens, they don't play the likes of 'Monster Mash' or 'Werewolves of London'  relentlessly at Halloween.

Thus Xmas is unavoidably intrusive whereas Halloween isn't.

Whilst I would agree with you on the aspects of the commercialisation of Christmas, it has a lot to do with the way in which society has taken it over as 'a time for the family', as opposed to a religious celebration.  Ironically, since celebrating Christmas had to be done largely behind closed doors in Nepal till the mid-90s, it was those 7 Christmases that we spent in Nepal that I have enjoyed most - no commercial prelude, no Christmas muzak in shops, ....  We just got on and celebrated it for what is - a birthday celebration; possibly not on the date it should have been, but then this happens in a number of occasions in a number or ways.

[ProfessorDavey]

Whilst I would agree with you on the aspects of the commercialisation of Christmas, it has a lot to do with the way in which society has taken it over as 'a time for the family', as opposed to a religious celebration.

Muddled thinking.

Why should seeing Christmas as 'a time for the family' equate with commercialisation. Surely it would be the reverse - all you need to be is with your family. And I think that is the crux of the matter, sure we go overboard on buying stuff but Christmas isn't Christmas (however much food, drink and presents we buy) without the people we love around us.

So loads of commercial stuff but no-one we love = rubbish Christmas
Being with people we love but not much commercial stuff = good Christmas
Add some additional good cheer in the form of food, drink and presents to being with people we love = better still

But the key isn't the commercial stuff, but the people.

Oh and for most people the religious stuff is completely irrelevant, except as cultural mood music.

[Hope]

Muddled thinking.

Why should seeing Christmas as 'a time for the family' equate with commercialisation. Surely it would be the reverse - all you need to be is with your family. And I think that is the crux of the matter, sure we go overboard on buying stuff but Christmas isn't Christmas (however much food, drink and presents we buy) without the people we love around us.

But that may be the case for you; for many, it is all about how drunk they can get, how much they can spend on presents so as to 'buy' love.  The very fact that the festival has become all about 'us', be that individually or as family, means that it becomes a means of impressing others. 

So loads of commercial stuff but no-one we love = rubbish Christmas
Being with people we love but not much commercial stuff = good Christmas
Add some additional good cheer in the form of food,drink and presents to being with people with love = better still

Sadly,I've worked with folk for whom none of these equations have worked; and have rather ended up with division, alienation, the splitting of families, etc.  Even more sadly, some of those have been seemingly strong Christian families.

But the key isn't the commercial stuff, but the people.

If the key was the people, the concentration wouldn't be so much on stuff.

[Hope]

Last night I saw all sorts of people out on the streets enjoying Halloween - today, are they all off celebrating All Saints day - nope.

Sounds like a degree of cultural poverty, to me   

[Brownie]

I like the inclusiveness of Christmas and approve of it being a 'time for the family' as well as being a religious festival.  All very rose tinted of course because more families have rows at Christmas than any time of year, plus there is great loneliness at Christmas for those who have no-one*.  Still it can be a really nice, cosy time, especially with youngsters.

*(If I was alone at Christmas I would go to bed for a lot of the time and thoroughly enjoy eating, reading, watching telly when I wanted and relishing my solitude but I am an unsociable bu**er.)

[Alan Burns]

Wrong way of looking at it Alan.

Halloween is the event - sure a few hard core Christians celebrate All Saints, but for the general population Halloween is the celebration and All Saints an irrelevance. Most people who enjoy Halloween aren't practicing Christians so their celebration on 31st October doesn't detract from anything of relevance to them.

Last night I saw all sorts of people out on the streets enjoying Halloween - today, are they all off celebrating All Saints day - nope.

I agree it is a sign of our increasingly secular society, as are the egg throwers who have scared off most of the little ones in our area.

[Khatru]

But unlike Christmas eve, it actually detracts from the real Christian festival of All Saints.  How many Halloweeners actually know that they are celebrating the eve of All Saints day?

You're not the "serious burns" that Vlad mentioned a few short posts back?

Halloweeners are celebrating Halloween.

It's as simple as that.

[Khatru]

By the way, we never called going out on Halloween "Trick or Treat"

For us, it was "guising".

We dressed up, knocked on doors and had to sing a song/recite a poem in return for sweets or fruit.

[Brownie]

That sounds good, Khatru.  On the odd occasion when it happened here, and the last was about four years ago, the children who knocked did the same.  They were really cute, one little girl dressed up had an older sister with her, who was about fourteen, who explained to me very carefully that she was only there because her mum had told her to accompany her little sister.  Then there was a really sweet  tiny boy with a couple of other kids, accompanied by dad.  I  liked all and gave them some fruit and chocolate biscuits which delighted them all.  I suppose I might have given them a little bit of money had I not had anything edible that was appropriate but the idea of tall 'axe murderers' with boxes of eggs, demanding cash, would put me right off.

[ProfessorDavey]

I agree it is a sign of our increasingly secular society

And given that Halloween has origins way earlier than Christianity I think your complaint is that it isn't Christian anymore - what demonstrates a lack of perspective.

as are the egg throwers who have scared off most of the little ones in our area.

And have you checked that the 'egg throwers' you claim to exist in your area are 'secular' - have you asked them. How do you know they aren't Christians? You don't no doubt.

And I have no interest in defending the tiny minority who may get up to no good on Halloween (and certainly don't presume to know their religious beliefs). But your claims don't resonate with my area. We have no trouble whatsoever - Halloween actually has developed in to a rather lovely community activity with families and groups of children enjoying going round to their neighbours (often having checked in advance that its OK) and the neighbours enjoying seeing them out and giving tiny rewards. There is also a well respected protocol - if you have Halloween decorations or a lit pumpkin out, please knock, if not please move on to the next house.

[Aruntraveller]

if you have Halloween decorations or a lit pumpkin out, please knock, if not please move on to the next house.

Yes to be even handed that happens where we live to. (That's just to balance out my still in my mind justified grumpiness  )

[Harrowby Hall]

I recall, back in my Lincolnshire childhood, a night called "Mischievous Night" just before Guy Fawkes Night. I do not recall ever taking part or being allowed to part, but it involved unsociable behaviour - knocking on doors and then running away, and so forth. Whether this was Halloween or not I cannot remember.

I hear that there was urban racing in Leeds and Birmingham (and probably other places, too) by large numbers of motorcyclists. Quite dangerous.

Whilst I would agree with you on the aspects of the commercialisation of Christmas, it has a lot to do with the way in which society has taken it over as 'a time for the family', as opposed to a religious celebration.

I think that the real situation here is that Christians have taken over the feast of Saturnalia and imposed religious meaning onto it. No one knows when Jesus was born - if he ever existed.

[ProfessorDavey]

Sounds like a degree of cultural poverty, to me   

Sound more like a degree of 'cultural fascism' from you.

In effect you are implying that you are the arbiter of what is culturally relevant and important and that if others don't agree with you then they are suffering from cultural poverty. Rather arrogant I'm sure you would agree.

Perhaps you want to ask yourself the following about who is at 'fault' here in relation to the cultural relevance of All Saints day. Is it those who fail to see the cultural relevance and resonance of All Saints day and therefore choose not to mark it, but do see the relevance and resonance of Halloween and therefore for choose to mark it. Alternatively is it the religious organisations who have failed to make the case for the relevance of All Saints day with any kind of success, such that the vast majority of people in the UK (including I would argue many if not most active Christians) choose not to mark it as they fail to be swayed by the arguments of its relevance.

I'd suggest the latter.

[ProfessorDavey]

The very fact that the festival has become all about 'us' ...

Well if by 'us' you mean those most close and dear to us, those that we love as they are our family and closest friend, then count me in. To me the very essence of Christmas is that it is a time to share with those we love the very most with the normal pressures of busy lives stripped away for a few precious days.

If that is somehow bad then I really do think you have your moral compass is wired badly wrong.