Po-faced Christians and Halloween

[Bubbles]

Personally, I can do without Guy Fawkes night - which really has nothing to do with Scotland, since we were separate when he tried a vast redocaration in Westminster, and, to be honest, we didn't really miss James VI. I simply loath fireworks. If they were confined to one day in one place, fine - but idiots letting the damn things off at night for weeks beforehand means that I'm effectively confined to quarters for two weeks before the fifth - the noise seriously disorients me and affects my mobility. Heaven knows how some of my guide dog owning friends cope.

I had you down as a "guy Fawkes" supporter 

I could just see the David Cameron " guy" sat on top the bonfire 

 

[ProfessorDavey]

for many, it is all about how drunk they can get

Sure there is a lot of drinking that goes on over Christmas, and by the way just as prevalent in Christian households as non-Christian ones.

But I think the worst excesses tend to be in the run up - the debouched office Christmas party type scenarios. And of course those aren't the situations where we are sharing with our closest and most loved - it is an opportunity to let off steam with work colleagues and the notion that it is in the run up to Christmas is pretty well irrelevant - have you seen works outings in the hospitality enclosure at Royal Ascot in June? Identical drunken behaviour.

And I'm sure you are aware of the time honoured traditions of the actively religious at Christmas - namely to go to the pub on Christmas Eve, get blind drunk and then roll into midnight mass completely intoxicated. Not my idea of a fun Christmas Eve on any count.

[Bubbles]

Tonight is Halloween and all round my local area knots of excited small children (carefully watched by their parents) are enjoying getting dressed up as skeletons, witches, ghouls etc and knocking on their neighbours' doors in the hope of some sweets. Entirely innocent and good natured.

Yet our local CofE church deeply disapproves. They sent out a flier last week asking parents to send their children to an 'animal themed' party tonight instead - dress as your 'favourite animal'. All very odd as they've never extended a general invite to a party before. Clearly this is an attempt to get kids to turn their back on Halloween and do something that the church doesn't disapprove of, presumably because they consider Halloween somehow 'ungodly'.

Why so po-faced - can't they simply let kids enjoy halloween?

Just imagine the outcry from the Daily Mail types if non religious people tried to hi-jack Christmas events and turn them into an 'animal themed' party.

They are probably the same people that disapprove of the Harry Potter books because they think they encourage people to "dabble in the occult."

Some Vicar objected to a local wassailing group when I lived in Somerset.

It all leads to dabbling in the occult, according to some Christians.

(At Carhampton, near Minehead, the Apple Orchard Wassailing is held on the old Twelfth Night (17 January) as a ritual to ask God for a good apple harvest. The villagers form a circle around the largest apple tree, hang pieces of toast soaked in cider in the branches for the robins, who represent the 'good spirits' of the tree. A shotgun is fired overhead to scare away evil spirits and the group sings, the following being the last verse,

Old Apple tree, old apple tree;
We've come to wassail thee;
To bear and to bow apples enow;
Hats full, caps full, three bushel bags full;
Barn floors full and a little heap under the stairs.[4])

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wassail

The media hunt these objectors out when news is a bit scarce.

Some more enlightened vicars join in.

http://www.marlboroughnewsonline.co.uk/features/people/features/environment/1367-hundreds-turn-out-to-wassail-marlborough-s-apple-trees

[ProfessorDavey]

They are probably the same people that disapprove of the Harry Potter books because they think they encourage people to "dabble in the occult."

Some Vicar objected to a local wassailing group when I lived in Somerset.

It all leads to dabbling in the occult, according to some Christians.

(At Carhampton, near Minehead, the Apple Orchard Wassailing is held on the old Twelfth Night (17 January) as a ritual to ask God for a good apple harvest. The villagers form a circle around the largest apple tree, hang pieces of toast soaked in cider in the branches for the robins, who represent the 'good spirits' of the tree. A shotgun is fired overhead to scare away evil spirits and the group sings, the following being the last verse,

Old Apple tree, old apple tree;
We've come to wassail thee;
To bear and to bow apples enow;
Hats full, caps full, three bushel bags full;
Barn floors full and a little heap under the stairs.[4])

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wassail

The media hunt these objectors out when news is a bit scarce.

I like these old traditions and customs, and they should be preserved. But to my mind the only way to do that is to detach them, in reality, from their serious original meaning while retaining some updated relevance. So I'd be delighted to sing that verse while wassailing, but I don't think I'd ever really believe that I'm tapping into the 'good spirits'. And if I felt that I was really expected to do so, I'd run a mile. The relevance is both cultural and also nodding to a more universal truth about the subtle changing of the seasons and the promise of spring and summer during the dark days of January.

So also with bonfire night. The original meaning is undeniably sectarian and anti-catholic, and I'm sure many of us would feel deeply uncomfortable about being part of anything which really retained that overt sentiment (not least me). But it has cultural traction and also has evolved to become more about a slightly dangerous (albeit carefully managed) and anarchic movement that attaches itself to the latest establishment figures to be ridiculed - hence the relatively new tradition of seeing effigies of political figures on the bonfire - anyone for Trump this year? Also there is, again, a resonance with the time of year. We change the clocks and suddenly it is dark early - early Nov is often when we really begin to feel a touch of chill in the weather. To light up that dark sky with fireworks and to wrap up warm out in the evening for the first time of the year while thinking of retiring to a warm house (or hostelry) afterwards reminds us of some of the joys of the coming season.

[floo]

They are probably the same people that disapprove of the Harry Potter books because they think they encourage people to "dabble in the occult."


'Dabbling with the occult', is what some Christians do when messing around with the unpleasant 'exorcism' hocus pocus, 'speaking in tongues' gobbledegook, or pretending to be 'healers'!

[Bubbles]

They are probably the same people that disapprove of the Harry Potter books because they think they encourage people to "dabble in the occult."


'Dabbling with the occult', is what some Christians do when messing around with the unpleasant 'exorcism' hocus pocus, 'speaking in tongues' gobbledegook, or pretending to be 'healers'!

Unfortunately they don't see it the same way Floo.

For some, if you do it in Jesus name and you do it under church supervision, it's ok.

My ordained friend believes in healing, within the church, but always regarded my spiritualist friend ( who considered herself a faith healer) as having her powers coming from the devil.

 

Somehow, laying on of hands in a c of e setting and a spiritualist claiming to be a faith healer are seen as different. ( even when the spiritualist believes in Jesus).

So exorcism, speaking in tongues, healing is all seen to be ok because that's perceived as the Holy Spirit, everything else is often seen as a poor copy of the HS, therefore Satanic.

Satan trying to trick people, and all that.

[floo]

Unfortunately they don't see it the same way Floo.

For some, if you do it in Jesus name and you do it under church supervision, it's ok.

My ordained friend believes in healing, within the church, but always regarded my spiritualist friend ( who considered herself a faith healer) as having her powers coming from the devil.

 

Somehow, laying on of hands in a c of e setting and a spiritualist claiming to be a faith healer are seen as different. ( even when the spiritualist believes in Jesus).

So exorcism, speaking in tongues, healing is all seen to be ok because that's perceived as the Holy Spirit, everything else is often seen as a poor copy of the HS, therefore Satanic.

Satan trying to trick people, and all that.

Satan is a very convenient scapegoat, poor darling!

[ProfessorDavey]

Satan is a very convenient scapegoat, poor darling!

one thing I find very odd is when Christians imply that atheists are somehow satanists. This is bizarre as atheists believe no more in the devil than they do in god.

[ProfessorDavey]

'Dabbling with the occult', is what some Christians do when messing around with the unpleasant 'exorcism' hocus pocus, 'speaking in tongues' gobbledegook, or pretending to be 'healers'!

I have some friends who moved into a house and then discovered that an early owner had committed suicide in the garden. All rather distressing and unpleasant. They (or rather the husband) decided to get an exorcism performed which astonished me as I genuinely though that was the sort of thing that really only happened in films.

Clearly didn't work as they moved about a year later!!!

[floo]

one thing I find very odd is when Christians imply that atheists are somehow satanists. This is bizarre as atheists believe no more in the devil than they do in god.

True.

[floo]

I have some friends who moved into a house and then discovered that an early owner had committed suicide in the garden. All rather distressing and unpleasant. They (or rather the husband) decided to get an exorcism performed which astonished me as I genuinely though that was the sort of thing that really only happened in films.

Clearly didn't work as they moved about a year later!!!

Sadly exorcisms are quite common. I believe children, especially in the US, have died because of this unpleasant nonsense! Some nutter wanted to perform an exorcism on our previous property, naturally we politely told them where to go!  It should be illegal to perform exorcisms on children and the vulnerable.

[Anchorman]

They are probably the same people that disapprove of the Harry Potter books because they think they encourage people to "dabble in the occult."


'Dabbling with the occult', is what some Christians do when messing around with the unpleasant 'exorcism' hocus pocus, 'speaking in tongues' gobbledegook, or pretending to be 'healers'!

I speak in tongues - I absolutely do NOT 'dabble in the occult'.
You've been told that before.

[floo]

I speak in tongues - I absolutely do NOT 'dabble in the occult'.
You've been told that before.

I believe the tongues gobbledegook is the same side of the coin, it is all nonsense.

[Anchorman]

I believe the tongues gobbledegook is the same side of the coin, it is all nonsense.

You accused those who use tongues of dabbling in the occult.
By implication, that means me.
I simply point out your error - or can you find evidence to back up the accusation, please?

[floo]

You accused those who use tongues of dabbling in the occult.
By implication, that means me.
I simply point out your error - or can you find evidence to back up the accusation, please?

I presume you believe that 'speaking in tongues' is a 'supernatural' gift from your version of god? If so, what is the difference between that and witchcraft or any other 'supernatural' practise? Of course I don't believe the supernatural exists, and that everything has a natural explanation.

[Anchorman]

I presume you believe that 'speaking in tongues' is a 'supernatural' gift from your version of god? If so, what is the difference between that and witchcraft or any other 'supernatural' practise? Of course I don't believe the supernatural exists, and that everything has a natural explanation.

So, that'll be a 'no' then?
You can't find evidence to back up yor accusation?
Fairy nuff.

[floo]

So, that'll be a 'no' then?
You can't find evidence to back up yor accusation?
Fairy nuff.

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe your version of god encourages you to 'speak in tongues'?

[Anchorman]

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe your version of god encourages you to 'speak in tongues'?

That's evading the accusation you made.
Please substantiate it with evidence, then I'll happily answer your question.

[floo]

That's evading the accusation you made.
Please substantiate it with evidence, then I'll happily answer your question.

I keep asking what is the difference between the occult and the 'supernatural' things some Christians claim to get up to like speaking in tongues, exorcism, and healing,  it all seems to be much of a muchness to me. You seem to be evading the question.

[Anchorman]

I keep asking what is the difference between the occult and the 'supernatural' things some Christians claim to get up to like speaking in tongues, exorcism, and healing,  it all seems to be much of a muchness to me. You seem to be evading the question.
[/quote


Sorry, you are dodging the fact that you made an accusation which you cannot substantiate.

[floo]

I keep asking what is the difference between the occult and the 'supernatural' things some Christians claim to get up to like speaking in tongues, exorcism, and healing,  it all seems to be much of a muchness to me. You seem to be evading the question.
[/quote


Sorry, you are dodging the fact that you made an accusation which you cannot substantiate.

Oh for pity's sake it is you who are refusing to answer my question, because you can't substantiate your faith!

[Brownie]

Anchorman:

"Quote from: Floo on Today at 02:05:31 PM
I believe the tongues gobbledegook is the same side of the coin, it is all nonsense.


You accused those who use tongues of dabbling in the occult.
By implication, that means me.
I simply point out your error - or can you find evidence to back up the accusation, please?"


Floo, as an impartial observer it looks to me as though Anchorman asked the first question.  So if you answer that, he will answer your question.

(If someone started a thread devoted to "tongues", I'm sure quite a few of us would contribute.  No, I won't start the thread, I always feel nervous about doing that, but I have had some experience of the phenomena.)

(Edited for grammah)

[Anchorman]

Brownie: I respect floo as a poster, but I've yet to see her coming up with any evidence to substantiate her point. I realise she had a truly terrible experience of what seemed to be an exclusive fundamentalist church in her childhood, but I'm trying to let her see that not all charismatic churches are as abominable as the one she was forced to attend, niether are mainstream Christians who happen to be charismatic to a degree in any way comparable.

[Brownie]

Yes Anchor, you are right.

I've resurrected an old thread about speaking in tongues, a subject which is of interest to quite a lot of posters and generate strong opinions.

[floo]

I am not sure what Anchorman wants me to say. I am asking what is the difference between some of the things attributed to so called 'spirit filled' Christians, and those who practise the occult?