Author Topic: Po-faced Christians and Halloween  (Read 17780 times)

Brownie

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #100 on: November 02, 2016, 05:21:30 PM »
and he asked you to substantiate your claim that tongues and the occult were the same (or something like that).

I've resurrected the Speaking in Tongues thread.
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floo

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #101 on: November 02, 2016, 05:22:52 PM »
and he asked you to substantiate your claim that tongues and the occult were the same (or something like that).

I've resurrected the Speaking in Tongues thread.

Because I cannot see any difference that is why, how many different ways do I have to put it?

Hope

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #102 on: November 02, 2016, 05:48:28 PM »
I keep asking what is the difference between the occult and the 'supernatural' things some Christians claim to get up to like speaking in tongues, exorcism, and healing,  it all seems to be much of a muchness to me. You seem to be evading the question.
OK, Floo, perhaps the greatest difference between the occult and the 'supernatural' things you list is that the former is associated with Satan, whilst the others are associated with God.  Since these two beings are at the opposite ends of the good/bad spectrum, the things associated with them must also be very different.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #103 on: November 03, 2016, 07:57:24 AM »
OK, Floo, perhaps the greatest difference between the occult and the 'supernatural' things you list is that the former is associated with Satan, whilst the others are associated with God.  Since these two beings are at the opposite ends of the good/bad spectrum, the things associated with them must also be very different.
But that's only relevant form your perspective - from a non religious perspective they look extremely similar - an overt appeal for supernatural intervention.

And on the good/bad thing - well I can think of countless examples of bad things overtly done in the name of god (i.e. by Christians and members of other religions justifying actions by an appeal to god's will) I can think of very few examples of the same bad actions done overtly in the name of satan. So as an example Im not aware of anyone campaigning under the banner 'Satan hates fags'.

Hope

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #104 on: November 03, 2016, 08:09:53 AM »
So as an example Im not aware of anyone campaigning under the banner 'Satan hates fags'.
One doesn't have to campaign under any particular banner, PD.  I accept that the Westboro Baptist folk are pretty obnoxious, but that is how many folk?  150-200?  How many attacks on gay people have we had here in the UK alone by people who have never suggested that their actions were instigated by any religious faith?  Who or what instigated those attacks?

As for the 'appearance' from outside, that can be applied to just about anything.  If someone is unwilling to do a bit of research and look further than just the outward appearance, I'm suspicious about their whole outlook.
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floo

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #105 on: November 03, 2016, 08:27:57 AM »
OK, Floo, perhaps the greatest difference between the occult and the 'supernatural' things you list is that the former is associated with Satan, whilst the others are associated with God.  Since these two beings are at the opposite ends of the good/bad spectrum, the things associated with them must also be very different.

And the difference between Satan and the Biblical god is? As the god featured in the Bible is so very nasty I can't see how Satan could be any worse.

Sassy

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #106 on: November 03, 2016, 10:03:22 AM »
Tonight is Halloween and all round my local area knots of excited small children (carefully watched by their parents) are enjoying getting dressed up as skeletons, witches, ghouls etc and knocking on their neighbours' doors in the hope of some sweets. Entirely innocent and good natured.

Yet our local CofE church deeply disapproves. They sent out a flier last week asking parents to send their children to an 'animal themed' party tonight instead - dress as your 'favourite animal'. All very odd as they've never extended a general invite to a party before. Clearly this is an attempt to get kids to turn their back on Halloween and do something that the church doesn't disapprove of, presumably because they consider Halloween somehow 'ungodly'.

Why so po-faced - can't they simply let kids enjoy halloween?

Just imagine the outcry from the Daily Mail types if non religious people tried to hi-jack Christmas events and turn them into an 'animal themed' party.

ProfessorDavey,

Have you ever experienced the paranormal?
Have you seen what the evil spirits of this world can do to some people?
We never celebrated in this country the USA traditions for Halloween.  America wonders why they are becoming a godless nation
but never worries about 'trick or treating'!

Harmless... is it harmless if your child has nightmares.
My son at the age of 2 had no use for nappies and dry nights.  At the age of 4 years he would run to answer the door if anyone knocked. Something we were trying to stop him doing. He had no problem going to get on his bed if tired night or day for a nap.
He was a happy go lucky child. Then one halloween there was a knock at the door and my son was coming down stairs the hall adjacent to the lounge. I got up to answer the door and he ran to it opened it and the look of horror on his young face as he fell backwards off his face stuck in my mind. My son was in shock I looked out to give whoever it was a piece of my mind and there was no one there. All he could say was they had yellow eyes and fangs and long claws.  My son had nightmares for months and even wet the bed. He would not go up stairs alone and would not sleep in a room alone.

Halloween, isn't harmless to children? It can psychologically torment and harm a child when (what I assume was an adult )does such stupid things where a child is involved.  It took a long time for him to overcome the scare he had. It scarred him for life and he had never liked Halloween since because even today he will tell you it looked so real in his little mind.

What happens if the door they knock on is a pervert? A peado who then targets those children?
It is one way of opening the door for children to be harmed. A party is a different thing organised by parents for children.
But even then what really does bandying things about like ghosts and ghouls actually do for children?
But if they want to have an Halloween party safely why not. Too many children allowed out alone with parental supervision.

But I believe the world can be harmful and ugly enough without adding our own frightening things to it. :)



We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Hope

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #107 on: November 03, 2016, 10:12:09 AM »
And the difference between Satan and the Biblical god is? As the god featured in the Bible is so very nasty I can't see how Satan could be any worse.
The difference is in that second sentence of yours.  The Biblical God is as far from 'so very nasty' as one can get.  I accept that you have had experiences as a child that colour your judgement, but since there are - by your own admission here - members of your family who disagree with you, I would have to suggest that your opinion isn't one that was reached rationally but emotionally - something that most of us here agree isn't a good basis for making judgements.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #108 on: November 03, 2016, 10:24:30 AM »

Have you seen what the evil spirits of this world can do to some people?

No.
Do you have some examples?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Sassy

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #109 on: November 03, 2016, 10:36:01 AM »
No.
Do you have some examples?
Nick, a guy who partner ran a childrens home, told me his friend and wife bought an old farm house and land very cheap.
However when knifes started flying across the kitchen at them they soon moved out. Do you not know anyone who has experienced something out of the ordinary?

Do you not believe the haunting reports or the things people have seen?


We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

floo

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #110 on: November 03, 2016, 10:45:12 AM »
The difference is in that second sentence of yours.  The Biblical God is as far from 'so very nasty' as one can get.  I accept that you have had experiences as a child that colour your judgement, but since there are - by your own admission here - members of your family who disagree with you, I would have to suggest that your opinion isn't one that was reached rationally but emotionally - something that most of us here agree isn't a good basis for making judgements.

Nothing to do with my childhood. I have read the Bible on a regular basis since I lost my when I was 19, which you appear not to have done if you think the things attributed to god are good. Tell me what is good about god?

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #111 on: November 03, 2016, 10:45:44 AM »
Nick, a guy who partner ran a childrens home, told me his friend and wife bought an old farm house and land very cheap.
However when knifes started flying across the kitchen at them they soon moved out.
Hearsay then.

Do you not know anyone who has experienced something out of the ordinary?

Do you not believe the haunting reports or the things people have seen?
No and no.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

BeRational

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #112 on: November 03, 2016, 10:48:03 AM »
Nick, a guy who partner ran a childrens home, told me his friend and wife bought an old farm house and land very cheap.
However when knifes started flying across the kitchen at them they soon moved out. Do you not know anyone who has experienced something out of the ordinary?

Do you not believe the haunting reports or the things people have seen?

Then your friend is telling lies.

No knives started flying across the kitchen unless he or she threw them.

That's how knives behave ALL THE TIME.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

floo

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #113 on: November 03, 2016, 10:50:05 AM »
Nick, a guy who partner ran a childrens home, told me his friend and wife bought an old farm house and land very cheap.
However when knifes started flying across the kitchen at them they soon moved out. Do you not know anyone who has experienced something out of the ordinary?

Do you not believe the haunting reports or the things people have seen?

As you know our previous property had a lot of weird activity going on there for 11 of the 15 years we lived in it. However, my husband (a scientist) and I are convinced there is a natural explanation for it all. Even if science hasn't come up with an explanation for the so called paranormal at present, I believe in the future it will. I would much sooner put my faith in science, which has achieved so much over the years, than in religion, which hasn't.

Sassy

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #114 on: November 03, 2016, 10:52:20 AM »
Hearsay then.
No and no.

I have seen what you might call 'ghosts' personally. Do I think they are the dead person? No but something of a paranormal
nature all the same. I have seen items move on their own and I have seen shadows and heard things.

So no hearsay but I know you couldn't cope if anything came your way.

We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #115 on: November 03, 2016, 10:58:03 AM »

So no hearsay but I know you couldn't cope if anything came your way.

How do you know that?
Prove it.....
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #116 on: November 03, 2016, 10:58:55 AM »
I have seen what you might call 'ghosts' personally. Do I think they are the dead person? No but something of a paranormal
nature all the same. I have seen items move on their own and I have seen shadows and heard things.


Over active imagination, the brain does strange things.....
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #117 on: November 03, 2016, 01:47:07 PM »
ProfessorDavey,

Have you ever experienced the paranormal?
No

Have you seen what the evil spirits of this world can do to some people?
No - I've seen awful things happening in this world but they are caused by people, or due to natural phenomena, not evil spirits for the simple reason that evil spirits don't exist.

We never celebrated in this country the USA traditions for Halloween.
Wrong - see earlier discussions - traditions basically identical to trick or treat existed in Britain well before they did in America, albeit called something different. Likewise carving of fruit/veg and 'jack-o-laterns', albeit different type of fruit.

Harmless... is it harmless if your child has nightmares.
My son at the age of 2 had no use for nappies and dry nights.  At the age of 4 years he would run to answer the door if anyone knocked. Something we were trying to stop him doing. He had no problem going to get on his bed if tired night or day for a nap.
He was a happy go lucky child. Then one halloween there was a knock at the door and my son was coming down stairs the hall adjacent to the lounge. I got up to answer the door and he ran to it opened it and the look of horror on his young face as he fell backwards off his face stuck in my mind. My son was in shock I looked out to give whoever it was a piece of my mind and there was no one there. All he could say was they had yellow eyes and fangs and long claws.  My son had nightmares for months and even wet the bed. He would not go up stairs alone and would not sleep in a room alone.

Halloween, isn't harmless to children? It can psychologically torment and harm a child when (what I assume was an adult )does such stupid things where a child is involved.  It took a long time for him to overcome the scare he had. It scarred him for life and he had never liked Halloween since because even today he will tell you it looked so real in his little mind.
I am sorry to hear about your story, and I'm certainly not going to deny its veracity, but I think this is very, very rare. I've never known a kid to be genuinely scared by modern Halloween traditions sufficient to cause nightmares etc. Indeed I think the current traditions of pumpkin carving and trick or treat are so sanitised that there is virtually nothing scary about them. I've known kids scared of all sorts of things - fireworks, clowns, animals, religious symbols etc, but not current Halloween. Should we ban all those other things that are much more likely to terrify kids?

On the latter, despite never having known a kid to be genuinely scared of Halloween customs, I have known I few who were scared and deeply disturbed by Christian symbolism - specifically the man nailed to a piece of wood, 'dying for us'. Additionally the notion of drinking blood and eating flesh, often imposed on children at the very tender age of 7. That is disturbing to kids, not getting dressed as a witch and getting chocolate from your neighbours.

What happens if the door they knock on is a pervert? A peado who then targets those children?
Evidence please of that ever happening. Plus of course there remains parental responsibility. Young kids shouldn't be trick or treating on their own, but with supervision from an adult or much older children.

But on the topic of perverts etc, I'm not aware of Halloween being used to groom children. There are, of course countless examples of children being groomed through interactions with religious organisations.

But even then what really does bandying things about like ghosts and ghouls actually do for children?
In its current form loads of fun.

But if they want to have an Halloween party safely why not. Too many children allowed out alone with parental supervision.

But I believe the world can be harmful and ugly enough without adding our own frightening things to it. :)
See above my point about parental supervision.

On the world being frightening - yup you are right it can be at times, and kids actually do need to learn to cope with this. But if you think that Halloween customs are significantly adding to that then you really have completely lost perspective.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 03:38:05 PM by ProfessorDavey »

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #118 on: November 03, 2016, 02:29:13 PM »
#110

Quote from: Hope
The difference is in that second sentence of yours.  The Biblical God is as far from 'so very nasty' as one can get.  I accept that you have had experiences as a child that colour your judgement, but since there are - by your own admission here - members of your family who disagree with you, I would have to suggest that your opinion isn't one that was reached rationally but emotionally - something that most of us here agree isn't a good basis for making judgements.
Quote from: Floo
Nothing to do with my childhood. I have read the Bible on a regular basis since I lost my when I was 19, which you appear not to have done if you think the things attributed to god are good. Tell me what is good about god?
The problem with your question Floo is that as soon as it is answered, you will start claiming that there is no evidence for the response.

So let me be clear. Can the existence of the Biblical God be assumed, "Yes" or "No"?

If "No", then your question is meaningless as there is no biblical God to discuss.

If "Yes", then how about John 3 v 16-17:

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

or Romans 5 v 8:

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #119 on: November 03, 2016, 02:32:38 PM »
#117

Quote from: Sassy
Have you seen what the evil spirits of this world can do to some people?
Quote from: ProfessorDavey
No
No - I've seen awful things happening in this world but they are caused by people, or due to natural phenomena, not evil spirits for the simple reason that evil spirits don't exist.
Is this because you have an absence of belief that evil spirits exist, or are you claiming as fact that evil spirits don't exist? If the latter, what reasoning can you give to back it up?
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #120 on: November 03, 2016, 02:56:07 PM »
#110
The problem with your question Floo is that as soon as it is answered, you will start claiming that there is no evidence for the response.

So let me be clear. Can the existence of the Biblical God be assumed, "Yes" or "No"?

If "No", then your question is meaningless as there is no biblical God to discuss.

If "Yes", then how about John 3 v 16-17:

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

or Romans 5 v 8:

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Can the existence of Australia be assumed? Well since the answer to that is no, then according to you the question is meaningless. I think you better think it out again.

floo

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #121 on: November 03, 2016, 03:15:21 PM »
#110
The problem with your question Floo is that as soon as it is answered, you will start claiming that there is no evidence for the response.

So let me be clear. Can the existence of the Biblical God be assumed, "Yes" or "No"?

If "No", then your question is meaningless as there is no biblical God to discuss.

If "Yes", then how about John 3 v 16-17:

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

or Romans 5 v 8:

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Sword the question is never answered sensibly. There is no evidence to support the existence of the Biblical god. What is loving for heaven's sake about a god who supposedly produced a son for the express purpose of having it die in an awful manner to 'save' humans from god's screw up in creating human nature?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #122 on: November 03, 2016, 03:36:23 PM »
#117
Is this because you have an absence of belief that evil spirits exist, or are you claiming as fact that evil spirits don't exist? If the latter, what reasoning can you give to back it up?
I do not believe in the existence of evil spirits. That lack of believe provides no onus on me to prove anything. The onus is on those that do believe that evil spirits exist to provide their evidence for their existence.

So until or unless there is convincing evidence for the existence of evil spirits we should proceed on the basis that they don't exist in our discussions.

Brownie

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #123 on: November 03, 2016, 03:43:35 PM »
I would have been terrified and had nightmares if, as a child, I'd seen a macabre figure even if it was explained to me that it was just a costume.  Come to think of it, I'd have been scared as an adult, especially a young adult.
So Sassy's story about her son sounds reasonable to me.  Some kids are more sensitive to such things, even to pictures and stories, and the children are not 'silly', it's just how they are.  They usually outgrow it.

Nothing wrong with small children, accompanied by an adult, dressed up as little Potteresque figures but 'big' people wearing macabre costumes straight out of adult horror movies is not on.  It's up to parents to ensure, as far as possible, their kids don't do that, neither should they behave in a menacing fashion which takes all the fun out of the business.

As for evil spirits, the human psyche is very complex;  'evil spirit' can mean more than one thing.
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ippy

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Re: Po-faced Christians and Halloween
« Reply #124 on: November 03, 2016, 03:57:51 PM »
How would you suggest that they keep those things to themselves?
Then in the very same sentence you want them to adopt our ideas because it would be better for them. How patronising is that?

Ps, we don't have to follow them, you do know that, don't you?

It was meant to be a fingers down the throat comment Toe, over the top, the same as having a go at a good friend of a northerner when you're a Southerner, no more than that and I did mention that I thought Halloween was a bit of fun, however I find it sad when we see to many imported not of our culture bits coming in from the US.

ippy