FIFA & Poppies: to ban or not to ban?

[Owlswing]

I am more unhappy with the alacrity with which varioius orgnisations, including our Government, local and national, ban anything that might annoy or upset.

The Poppy has been around for years, its meaning is known worldwide (I used to donate to get mine in Aussie), I really feel banning it for any reason is unreasonable.

[Brownie]

Yes, it is stupid to ban it. 

[Hope]

What I'd like to know is how FIFA reach the conclusion that the poppy is a political and/or religious motif?

[Brownie]

I wondered the same and googled, "Wearing red poppy", and found a wiki article which gives some detail about the controversy over poppy wearing (not specific to FIFA).  Here's an extract:

"In recent years, there has been growing controversy over the Poppy Appeal. Some—including British Army veterans—have argued that the Poppy Appeal has become excessive and garish, that it is being used to marshal support behind British military campaigns, and that poppy wearing has become compulsory for public figures.[29][30] Channel 4 newsreader Jon Snow described it as "poppy fascism".[31] Columnist Dan O'Neill wrote that "presenters and politicians seem to compete in a race to be first – poppies start sprouting in mid-October while the absence of a poppy is interpreted as absence of concern for the war dead, almost as an unpatriotic act of treachery".[32] Likewise, Jonathan Bartley of the religious think-tank Ekklesia said "public figures in Britain are urged, indeed in many cases, required, to wear ... the red poppy, almost as an article of faith. There is a political correctness about the red poppy".[33] Journalist Robert Fisk complained that the poppy has become a seasonal "fashion accessory" and that people were "ostentatiously wearing a poppy for social or work-related reasons, to look patriotic when it suited them".[34] Controversially, some far-right groups have used the poppy as a symbol of militant British nationalism, while some Muslims have begun to reject it as a symbol of Western imperialism."

Some people don't have enough to complain about.

[Anchorman]

Not only that, Brownie, but, sadly, in some parts of Northern Ireland, wearing or not wearing the poppy is very much a political statement. It shouldn't be, of course, but it is.

[Brownie]

I agree it shouldn't be but in a way it is understandable in NI, Anchorman.

[SteveH]

I think white poppies are an insult to those who died!

They are a symbol of the desire for peace. Many people wear both a red and a white one.

[SteveH]

Are they really?  I never thought of them like that, honestly.  The white feather business was dreadful, how could anyone make a judgement about someone not in uniform.

My view was that white poppies were making a statement about being committed to peace and many people who survived combat felt the same, some even going as far as becoming pacifists.  However my idea of wearing a white poppy was not about pacifism in every situation but because I believed if everyone committed to peace, more peaceful solutions would be found.

Oh well, white poppies are no longer around as far as I know so the situation doesn't arise but thanks for your opinions.  I wish SteveH would comment on this thread because he knows more about it than I.  Not a big deal though, I'm sure you know I didn't intend any offence to anyone - still not sure that white poppies are offensive but you said so and wouldn't have without good reason.

Found this wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_poppy

It seems I wasn't being insulting by wearing a white poppy and there is nothing wrong with them!
I thought so but being as it was years ago and I am by nature a bit vague about some things, I presumed you had done some research.

Still hope SteveH comes on with his opinion though he may not care one way or 't'other.

I will buy two red poppies, as I do every year, one of which I will wear until it falls off and the other for the old man who always loses it in five minutes.  If I see a white poppy on sale I'll wear both. 

We used to have a British Legion club down the road to us which was quite a good social club by all accounts, my neighbours used to go but we never got around to it.  It is now an extremely nice and useful Co-op, which I do go to, including this morning (no leftover pumpkins for me to make soup today)!   Years ago I imagine they would have had information about the different poppies and the Wiki article says that the BL see no conflict between wearing both.

Hi - I'm back.  White poppies are still available, though you have to order them. I used to be a member of the PPU in the 70s.

[Owlswing]

I think you are a bloody idiot. They are a symbol of the desire for peace. Many people wear both a red and a white one.

You are entitled to your opinion - I will not post my opinion of you.

[Owlswing]

I don't know if this will work, but here goes . . .

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Update - it doesn't - damn it!

[Nearly Sane]

The much missed FastFlint #13


http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=9431.0

[Nearly Sane]

Given the fuss made over people not wearing a red poppy, it is already politicised before FIFA. Let's presume the 'ban' is overturned and a player on either side on Scotland v England chooses not wear the armband, and imagine the fuss that would be made by some.

[Nearly Sane]

On a par with the White Feather of WW1.

Ah yes the great cowardice of refusing to kill people.

[SteveH]

I wondered the same and googled, "Wearing red poppy", and found a wiki article which gives some detail about the controversy over poppy wearing (not specific to FIFA).  Here's an extract:

"In recent years, there has been growing controversy over the Poppy Appeal. Some—including British Army veterans—have argued that the Poppy Appeal has become excessive and garish, that it is being used to marshal support behind British military campaigns, and that poppy wearing has become compulsory for public figures.[29][30] Channel 4 newsreader Jon Snow described it as "poppy fascism".[31] Columnist Dan O'Neill wrote that "presenters and politicians seem to compete in a race to be first – poppies start sprouting in mid-October while the absence of a poppy is interpreted as absence of concern for the war dead, almost as an unpatriotic act of treachery".[32] Likewise, Jonathan Bartley of the religious think-tank Ekklesia said "public figures in Britain are urged, indeed in many cases, required, to wear ... the red poppy, almost as an article of faith. There is a political correctness about the red poppy".[33] Journalist Robert Fisk complained that the poppy has become a seasonal "fashion accessory" and that people were "ostentatiously wearing a poppy for social or work-related reasons, to look patriotic when it suited them".[34] Controversially, some far-right groups have used the poppy as a symbol of militant British nationalism, while some Muslims have begun to reject it as a symbol of Western imperialism."

Some people don't have enough to complain about.

I agree with your quoted paragraph, and dislike poppy-fascism as well. I have been a poppy refusenik for the last few years, in protest.

[floo]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on the matter of poppies.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't know if this will work, but here goes . . .

14632874_10211296021177730_9123599233011202857_n

Didn't

[SteveH]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on the matter of poppies.

...and everyone else is entitled to disagree. My insult was rather unnecessary, though, so I've removed it. Sorry.

[Bubbles]

Im not against either red or white poppies

http://www.bbc.co.uk/remembrance/how/poppy.shtml

I didn't know white poppies caused some to lose their jobs 

I have a red poppy brooch this year and I see it as a reminder of all those involved in various wars that didn't come home, and our responsibility towards those who came ( or still do, now) home injured or disabled.

I don't think banning it on a football match when the parties involved are in the UK as we are still remembering the same people as in those wars the soldiers came from all over the uk, on first glance is reasonable.

I suppose it could be an issue and a political statement if the soldiers you are remembering were killing off relatives of people you are playing or mixing with.

NI could be an issue if the people perceived as being remembered were thought to be the surpressers there.

However that's just one match, which could be sorted by listening to how both sides felt about wearing poppies and just stopping the wearing of it, if it was likely to cause tensions.

If it was used as a Protestant symbol to wind up the republicans, that's probably not a good idea.

It would be an abuse of what the poppy is supposed to mean, a rememberance of the dead and a giving to the living.

I suppose it depends how likely it is for the symbol of the Poppy to be abused to wind up and increase hostilities.

Maybe they thought it could be, after all people have been known to abuse symbols to mean quite offensive things.

The swastica used to be a Hindu symbol.

Initially my reaction to a poppy ban is that it is ridiculous.

However, I'm prepared to discover it may be being abused to mean something else, and maybe fifa's answer is to stop it, altogether.

Not sure.

[Bubbles]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/fifa-set-allow-england-scotland-9172846

So England, Scotland and Wales is fine but NI isn't ?

Looks like there may be something in what I thought about the likelihood of the Poppy being misinterpreted.

In some places maybe it does come across as political.

I wonder how Germans view it?

I know there was an issue sometime back with how a few Muslims saw it, with regard to Afghanistan.

Remember Anjem Choudary and the poppy fiasco?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055365/Poppy-burning-Muslims-plan-new-hell-heroes-demonstration-November-11.html

I think Fifa just want to avoid conflict.

[Anchorman]

The poppy is contentious in some parts of NI - seen as an Imperialist symbol by some, and as a gesture toward republicanism to those who don't wear it (despite many from the Free State fighting in WWII) In Scotland, it has caused contention, when several Glasgow Celtic players did not wear it on their strips. Imagine the controversy if the symbol were allowed at a game? Imagine if a player or two - Scots or English - did NOT wear it, whilst the rest did. The furore and backlash would be horrendous. Poppy fascism is real, and devalues the meaning of the symbol. It must be a matter of personal choice to wear or not to wear - except if there is pressure brought to bear to wear - in which case I would stand with those who refused to bow to the pressure.

[Bubbles]

The poppy is contentious in some parts of NI - seen as an Imperialist symbol by some, and as a gesture toward republicanism to those who don't wear it (despite many from the Free State fighting in WWII) In Scotland, it has caused contention, when several Glasgow Celtic players did not wear it on their strips. Imagine the controversy if the symbol were allowed at a game? Imagine if a player or two - Scots or English - did NOT wear it, whilst the rest did. The furore and backlash would be horrendous. Poppy fascism is real, and devalues the meaning of the symbol. It must be a matter of personal choice to wear or not to wear - except if there is pressure brought to bear to wear - in which case I would stand with those who refused to bow to the pressure.

Yes, I agree, I think it should be personal choice.

Although I don't suppose there is a real need to wear it while playing football.

They can always wear it, while not actually playing.

I can understand you not wanting to be told and be forced to wear it, no one likes being told what to do.

I think if I was told I had to wear it ( rather than personal choice) I wouldn't like it either.

🌹

[Hope]

If FIFA deem remembrance poppies to be political, religious or commercial symbols, why do they allow national teams to wear their national symbols on their shirts?  There is possibly nothing more overtly political a symbol than this badge!!

[Brownie]

Quite.   

Honestly, I wouldn't have thought FIFA would consist of people who sit down and debate the ethics of poppy wearing.

[Hope]

I emailed FIFA earlier this evening asking them to explain why the poppy is seen as a political, religious and/or commercial symbol, but the national badges on the players' shirts aren't.

[Anchorman]

Apparently, the Scots are ignoring the ban: http://stv.tv/news/scotland/1371823-scotland-team-to-wear-poppy-armbands-in-spite-of-fifa-sanctions/?utm_content=buffer75fe4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer