FIFA & Poppies: to ban or not to ban?

[Harrowby Hall]

So, what will FIFA do? Declare the game invalid?

I think FIFA should be told that they have no jurisdiction in internal UK law. What two British national teams choose to do inside the UK, which is acceptable to both teams and which does not infringe the laws of England or Scotland is none of FIFA's business.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think it's clear FIFA misunderstand poppies .But having seen box pops I wonder if it has been seen as a mark of militarism rather than a symbol promoting the need for remembrance.
What are poppies for?

[Nearly Sane]

So, what will FIFA do? Declare the game invalid?

I think FIFA should be told that they have no jurisdiction in internal UK law. What two British national teams choose to do inside the UK, which is acceptable to both teams and which does not infringe the laws of England or Scotland is none of FIFA's business.

Which is entirely irrelevant to the issue. The Associations are part of FIFA and  signed up to the rules.

[Harrowby Hall]

Which is entirely irrelevant to the issue. The Associations are part of FIFA and  signed up to the rules.

I am well aware that both Associations are part of FIFA.

My first statement was asking what FIFA will do about this. The two Associations are breaking no English or Scottish law and thus are doing something which is entirely legal and culturally appropriate. Will FIFA argue that its rules take precedence over national law?

FIFA should be told that wearing Poppies is not a political but a humanitarian, cultural gesture.

[Nearly Sane]

I am well aware that both Associations are part of FIFA.

My first statement was asking what FIFA will do about this. The two Associations are breaking no English or Scottish law and thus are doing something which is entirely legal and culturally appropriate. Will FIFA argue that its rules take precedence over national law?

FIFA should be told that wearing Poppies is not a political but a humanitarian, cultural gesture.

No, it won't be arguing that, it will be arguing that its rules apply, there is no question of precedence. Plenty of things in football are 'legal' but have disciplinary effect.

As I noted earlier, imagine the storm if one of the players say they don't want to wear a poppy, and then tell me that it isn't political.

[Anchorman]

To add a parochial bit to NS: When Glasgow Celtic happened to be playing a game a few years back around this time of year, two players did not wear a poppy. The resultant bile from certain sections of the media suggest that they misunderstand the meaning of rememberance just as much as FIFA do.

[Nearly Sane]

To add a parochial bit to NS: When Glasgow Celtic happened to be playing a game a few years back around this time of year, two players did not wear a poppy. The resultant bile from certain sections of the media suggest that they misunderstand the meaning of rememberance just as much as FIFA do.

I'm not sure that FIFA 'misunderstand' it, rather I suspect that the aim is to avoid having lots of cases where they have to have discussion of whether something is political.

[Owlswing]

A poem attributed to a member of the 1st Shankhill Somme Association

The Poppy

I am not a badge of honour
I am not a racist smear
I am not a fshion statement
To be worn but once a year
I am not a glorification
Of conflict or of war.
I am not a paper ornament
A token
I m more.
I am a loving memory
Of a father or a son
A permanent reminder
Of each and every one.
I am paper or enamel
I'm old or shining new
I'm a way of saying thank you
To everyone of you.
I am a simple poppy
A reminder to you all
That courage faith and honour 
Will stand where heroes fall.

[Hope]

No, it won't be arguing that, it will be arguing that its rules apply, there is no question of precedence. Plenty of things in football are 'legal' but have disciplinary effect.

And of course there are those who are arguing that the rules apply - yes - but that FIFA are wrongly applying them in this case since they are wrongly interpreting their own rules.

[Nearly Sane]

And of course there are those who are arguing that the rules apply - yes - but that FIFA are wrongly applying them in this case since they are wrongly interpreting their own rules.

As I wrote in reply to Anchorman, I suspect there is precious little interpreting being done by them, and this is more seeking to avoid having to make decisions on such stuff, and is aiming for something close to a blanket ban.

And again given the opprobrium that would be thrown at any players who didn't wear the poppy, then I think there is a strong argument for it being political.

[Nearly Sane]

A poem attributed to a member of the 1st Shankhill Somme Association

The Poppy

I am not a badge of honour
I am not a racist smear
I am not a fshion statement
To be worn but once a year
I am not a glorification
Of conflict or of war.
I am not a paper ornament
A token
I m more.
I am a loving memory
Of a father or a son
A permanent reminder
Of each and every one.
I am paper or enamel
I'm old or shining new
I'm a way of saying thank you
To everyone of you.
I am a simple poppy
A reminder to you all
That courage faith and honour 
Will stand where heroes fall.

I note their Facebook page has plenty of politicak statements about Ulster.

[wigginhall]

As I wrote in reply to Anchorman, I suspect there is precious little interpreting being done by them, and this is more seeking to avoid having to make decisions on such stuff, and is aiming for something close to a blanket ban.

And again given the opprobrium that would be thrown at any players who didn't wear the poppy, then I think there is a strong argument for it being political.

James McClean has consistently refused to wear a poppy, and he regularly gets flak in the tabloids, and also received death threats.  He's from Derry, and argues that the British army is not seen benignly there.   (West Brom player?)

It's the conformism that irritates me.   BBC staff en masse start wearing them, and football teams actually have them printed on shirts.   That would make me refuse.

[Owlswing]

I note their Facebook page has plenty of political statements about Ulster.

I do not think many wear the poppy for Ulster!

[Nearly Sane]

I do not think many wear the poppy for Ulster!

Didn't say they did, but you mentioned the organisation, and a quick scan of their Facebook page illustrates the entwined cultural aspects of the Poppy and anti-Republicanism for them. As both Anchorman and wigginhall have covered the refusal to wear a poppy by James McClean has been motivated from the other side of the sad divide.

[wigginhall]

McClean shows to me that it's not really an individual decision, since when he does decide against wearing a poppy, he gets pilloried.   There is a bullying atmosphere about poppies today that makes me puke.   I remember my grandad used to rant and rave about it, no poppies in this house, sunshine.

[Sassy]

Poppies are apparently banned over the next few home nations games. http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/01/fifa-bans-poppies-during-match-because-they-are-political-statements-6226627/?ito=facebook

It is not political or religious.

FIFA are pathetic and if the world told them so the players could wear poppies. Why not have the poppy printed into their club logos.

FIFA Could do nothing about having a flower in your shirt logo. Every football club could have a shirt with a small poppy on the right sleeve permanently.

[Anchorman]

And what if, through choice, a player did not wish to display a poppy, Sass? A compulsory poppy on a shirt negates the purpose of personal rememberance, I'm afraid.

[Sassy]

And what if, through choice, a player did not wish to display a poppy, Sass? A compulsory poppy on a shirt negates the purpose of personal rememberance, I'm afraid.

A poppy is a flower and it is simply a flower. What we attach to that flower is simply personal to each person.
Are you saying a poppy was created solely for remembrance? You never really had a point did you Anchorman?
You need to get rid of your problem with me. It is clear in the bible, if you can love those here you cannot love God whom you do not see.  Sight not being the problem but the way you love others reflects how we love God or not.

[Sebastian Toe]

You need to get rid of your problem with me.

...says the woman who asks God directly, to act on Anchorman's life...

Almighty, and most merciful heavenly Father, please put an end to the work he does till he stops mocking the truth of Genesis and that every word from your mouth is reliable and truth. In Jesus Name. Amen.

Hmmmm........

[Anchorman]

Sass: Had you read this thread, you will note that I have stated that I will most definately wear a poppy (two if I can get a white one as well). But you know as well as I do that a poppy is a symbol of rememberance - and I wholeheartedly support this (though the name "Earl Haig" still causes contention, especially amongst veterans). However to impose the symbol as part of a uniform or sporting strip would cheapen the meaning of that rememberance. It must always be a matter of private reflection and personal choice whether to wear one or not. A nieghbour who served in the Navy was disciplined for refusing to wear one at Rememberance parade - because he remembered his father breaking down every time he saw the poppy (His dad was a D-Day veteran and refused to wear it). Out of respect for his dad, he would not wear it. Was he wrong in refusing to toe the line, Sass?

[wigginhall]

And what if, through choice, a player did not wish to display a poppy, Sass? A compulsory poppy on a shirt negates the purpose of personal rememberance, I'm afraid.

Yes, a printed poppy on a football shirt is really bizarre.   It means that the individual's decision is being taken for him, by the club, I suppose.   

I had to laugh yesterday when I saw Theresa May pontificating about it, making it certainly political. 

I think FIFA have an interesting argument also that many countries have gone through terrible wars and revolutions, so presumably, they should be able to commemorate these things on their shirts.   I suppose FIFA are just saying no to any.

[wigginhall]

Having said that, I think FIFA did allow a symbol on Irish players' shirts, to commemorate the Easter Rising, so this seems inconsistent.

http://cdn-04.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/article34506230.ece/a4fb1/AUTOCROP/w620/2016-03-03_new_17351365_I3.JPG

No, correction again, I don't think that was a decision by FIFA, as it was a friendly.

[Nearly Sane]

Having said that, I think FIFA did allow a symbol on Irish players' shirts, to commemorate the Easter Rising, so this seems inconsistent.

http://cdn-04.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/article34506230.ece/a4fb1/AUTOCROP/w620/2016-03-03_new_17351365_I3.JPG

Given that they have said they are evaluating this, it isn't clear that they allowed it.

[wigginhall]

Yes, the Irish symbols were worn in friendly matches, so possibly FIFA were not involved.

[Nearly Sane]

Of course, it is that time of year when mascots remember too


http://www.anorak.co.uk/374834/sports/football-mascots-observe-the-minutes-silences-photos.html/