Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?

[ippy]

I think one reason is more obvious than a lot of others is the built in requirement to indoctrinate the next generation, they all do this, figures largely.

Or taking on these beliefs as comforting/soma like soporific,  protective blanket that enables followers to blank off the harder side of everyday life we all have to deal with, one thing is for certain no credible evidence needed or, as it seems to me, wanted.

None of them are believable to me.

ippy 

[Owlswing]

I think one reason is more obvious than a lot of others is the built in requirement to indoctrinate the next generation, they all do this, figures largely.

Or taking on these beliefs as comforting/soma like soporific,  protective blanket that enables followers to blank off the harder side of everyday life we all have to deal with, one thing is for certain no credible evidence needed or, as it seems to me, wanted.

None of them are believable to me.

ippy

I am fortunate that I can deny entirely "the built in requirement to indoctrinate the next generation", as I was introduced to Paganism, after fifteen years of Christianity, and forty odd years of agnosticism, by my "next generation - my older daughter! Her sister chose to join us after carryoing out her own investigation independant of her father and older sister.

[ippy]

I am fortunate that I can deny entirely "the built in requirement to indoctrinate the next generation", as I was introduced to Paganism, after fifteen years of Christianity, and forty odd years of agnosticism, by my "next generation - my older daughter! Her sister chose to join us after carryoing out her own investigation independant of her father and older sister.

The first four words of my previous post had that covered Owl, I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons for taking up these mystic, magical and superstitious beliefs, but I do think very gullible, youngest of children are their main recruiting grounds.

ippy
   

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?

In my opinion, there are essentially two types of people in this world.

One type sees the world and the universe with evidence for design and sees that something is responsible for it. There is disagreement about what the something is, hence the various religious beliefs.

One type sees the world and the universe and concludes that the only thing that one can be sure about is what can be tested, the empirical. Hence (intentionally or not) there is an assumption of natural causes and explanations only.

From my perspective, I will always be in the former camp as the latter requires something to come from nothing (laws from non-laws, truth from non-truth, life from non-life, etc). Observation apart, discoveries in Physics (e.g. Newton's conservation of xxx laws) contradict that, and it is the contradiction (i.e. a demonstration that it isn't possible) that has made my mind up.

[Hope]

I think one reason is more obvious than a lot of others is the built in requirement to indoctrinate the next generation, they all do this, figures largely.

Or taking on these beliefs as comforting/soma like soporific,  protective blanket that enables followers to blank off the harder side of everyday life we all have to deal with, one thing is for certain no credible evidence needed or, as it seems to me, wanted.

None of them are believable to me.

ippy

If that is the reason, ippy, why are confirmed atheists converting to various religious beliefs?

[SusanDoris]

Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?

In my opinion, there are essentially two types of people in this world.

One type sees the world and the universe with evidence for design and sees that something is responsible for it. There is disagreement about what the something is, hence the various religious beliefs.

One type sees the world and the universe and concludes that the only thing that one can be sure about is what can be tested, the empirical. Hence (intentionally or not) there is an assumption of natural causes and explanations only.

From my perspective, I will always be in the former camp as the latter requires something to come from nothing (laws from non-laws, truth from non-truth, life from non-life, etc). Observation apart, discoveries in Physics (e.g. Newton's conservation of xxx laws) contradict that, and it is the contradiction (i.e. a demonstration that it isn't possible) that has made my mind up.

And would you have your beliefs taught to children as truths? If so what objective, testable, verifiable, etc evidence would you present to show them that your theory was worth believing? Pleas  note the lower case 't' at the beginning of the word theory.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And would you have your beliefs taught to children as truths? If so what objective, testable, verifiable, etc evidence would you present to show them that your theory was worth believing? Pleas  note the lower case 't' at the beginning of the word theory.

Ah, the scientism curriculum The jewel in the crown of the eradication of the religious from freedom of expression.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

And would you have your beliefs taught to children as truths? If so what objective, testable, verifiable, etc evidence would you present to show them that your theory was worth believing? Pleas  note the lower case 't' at the beginning of the word theory.

I would teach them as beliefs. From the Christian perspective, I wouldn't want to force it on them as the individual needs to respond of their own free will.

[Brownie]

I agree with you, Sword.  Tell people "This is what I believe", if they are interested but not, "This is how it is".
If they are sufficiently interested in beliefs, they will also want to know about other beliefs and eventually do some research.

[ippy]

I agree with you, Sword.  Tell people "This is what I believe", if they are interested but not, "This is how it is".
If they are sufficiently interested in beliefs, they will also want to know about other beliefs and eventually do some research.

Nothing wrong with telling people this is what I believe Brownie, it's the suggestion to young children 'this is the way', 'oh it's only a nativity play', 'oh it's only a whacking great cross on the side of the school' with the addition of 'oh it's only' loads of other things; when added together they amount to guidance', another one, 'oh it's only a short form of a daily religious service of a mainly christian nature.

Where do all of these 'oh it's onlys' stop, where do you draw the line, I would have to agree with the 'oh it's onlys', if there was only a few of them, or they were not continually being reinforced day after day, if that were the case of course I would be overreacting but as you and I know full well that's not the case.

Can you imagine the fuss if a similar method of impregnating the inns and outs of unionism was being aimed at our youngest most vulnerable children on a daily basis?

ippy 

[Owlswing]

Nothing wrong with telling people this is what I believe Brownie, it's the suggestion to young children 'this is the way', 'oh it's only a nativity play', 'oh it's only a whacking great cross on the side of the school' with the addition of 'oh it's only' loads of other things; when added together they amount to guidance', another one, 'oh it's only a short form of a daily religious service of a mainly christian nature.

Where do all of these 'oh it's onlys' stop, where do you draw the line, I would have to agree with the 'oh it's onlys', if there was only a few of them, or they were not continually being reinforced day after day, if that were the case of course I would be overreacting but as you and I know full well that's not the case.

Can you imagine the fuss if a similar method of impregnating the inns and outs of unionism was being aimed at our youngest most vulnerable children on a daily basis?

ippy

Look at the crap that is hitting the fan about some of Birmingham's Muslim schools!

[ippy]

If that is the reason, ippy, why are confirmed atheists converting to various religious beliefs?

 

There will always be some that swim against the tide but there you already knew this, last year was the first time the C of E had under a million attend their services, oops.

ippy 

[ippy]

Look at the crap that is hitting the fan about some of Birmingham's Muslim schools!

I daren't comment, quite strong this will to live, innit.

ippy

[Owlswing]

I daren't comment, quite strong this will to live, innit.

ippy

If I am completely honest there have been and are times when reading some posts on here actually come close to making me lose the will to live. No names/no packdrill.

[Brownie]

The answer to that is, don't have faith schools;  let all schools be secular with a good cross section of pupils.  But we've done that one already.

[Hope]

 

There will always be some that swim against the tide but there you already knew this, last year was the first time the C of E had under a million attend their services, oops.

ippy

But unfortunately for you, ippy, the CofE isn't the only Christian organisation in the UK.  When non-conformist congregation attendances are taken into account, the church (as opposed to the Church) is holding its own.  At the same time, during the year you refer to, attendances at CofE churches at Christmas and Easter rose!!

[Hope]

Where do all of these 'oh it's onlys' stop, where do you draw the line, I would have to agree with the 'oh it's onlys', if there was only a few of them, or they were not continually being reinforced day after day, if that were the case of course I would be overreacting but as you and I know full well that's not the case.

I suspect that more of this 'continually being reinforced day after day' takes place in the home - be that a 'faith' home or a 'non-faith' home, ippy.  For instance, when did you discuss anything to do with religion with your children - over a Sunday lunch for instance?  Many Christian families discuss a wide range of social issues over a period of time - either 'formally' as happened with me as a child (and with my children) with my father starting debates on politics, education, health, sport, religion and non-belief, science and pretty well everything else at Sunday lunchtimes, or informally between parents and children.  Remember that one can reinforce attitudes to certain ideas by the omission of them from discussion just as much as you can reinforce them by their inclusion.

Can you imagine the fuss if a similar method of impregnating the inns and outs of unionism was being aimed at our youngest most vulnerable children on a daily basis?

It happens in the Welsh valleys every day, with children being told - in one breathe - that Labour and the unions are the only true saviours of the people and - in the next breathe - how hopeless the Labour Government in Cardiff is.

[Anchorman]

I would teach them as beliefs. From the Christian perspective, I wouldn't want to force it on them as the individual needs to respond of their own free will.

Agreed, Sword.
What they do with those teachings is up to them.

[ippy]

I suspect that more of this 'continually being reinforced day after day' takes place in the home - be that a 'faith' home or a 'non-faith' home, ippy.  For instance, when did you discuss anything to do with religion with your children - over a Sunday lunch for instance?  Many Christian families discuss a wide range of social issues over a period of time - either 'formally' as happened with me as a child (and with my children) with my father starting debates on politics, education, health, sport, religion and non-belief, science and pretty well everything else at Sunday lunchtimes, or informally between parents and children.  Remember that one can reinforce attitudes to certain ideas by the omission of them from discussion just as much as you can reinforce them by their inclusion.
It happens in the Welsh valleys every day, with children being told - in one breathe - that Labour and the unions are the only true saviours of the people and - in the next breathe - how hopeless the Labour Government in Cardiff is.

The last you gov poll I saw was 51% of the UK is now non religious, if they're a few points out it's still a healthy trend and my reference to the daily spread of unionism was referring to spreading it within our institutions in an exactly similar way the religious promote their cause as they do at the moment with government support too, is plainly out of order.

What parents do, legally of course, or say in their own homes is their own buisness.

ippy

[torridon]

Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?

In my opinion, there are essentially two types of people in this world.

One type sees the world and the universe with evidence for design and sees that something is responsible for it. There is disagreement about what the something is, hence the various religious beliefs.

One type sees the world and the universe and concludes that the only thing that one can be sure about is what can be tested, the empirical. Hence (intentionally or not) there is an assumption of natural causes and explanations only.

From my perspective, I will always be in the former camp as the latter requires something to come from nothing (laws from non-laws, truth from non-truth, life from non-life, etc). Observation apart, discoveries in Physics (e.g. Newton's conservation of xxx laws) contradict that, and it is the contradiction (i.e. a demonstration that it isn't possible) that has made my mind up.

Or maybe there are two types of people in this world.  One type can tolerate uncertainty and are happy with 'we don't know, yet'; the other type prefer to have some sort of coherent and fairly fixed worldview at the back of the mind, one that makes reasonable enough sense of our experience. 

I'm probably in the former camp, and from your use of the word always, I guess you to be in the latter camp. Always, suggests a fixedness of mind, a mind not being open to new understandings.  And despite your protestations about life from non-life and laws from non-laws, somehow a God from no-God draws no such protestations from you; again suggesting you are not willing or able to apply your reasoning without prejudice. This type of thinking is an excuse for belief rather than a genuine reason for belief.

[floo]

Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?

In my opinion, there are essentially two types of people in this world.

One type sees the world and the universe with evidence for design and sees that something is responsible for it. There is disagreement about what the something is, hence the various religious beliefs.

One type sees the world and the universe and concludes that the only thing that one can be sure about is what can be tested, the empirical. Hence (intentionally or not) there is an assumption of natural causes and explanations only.

From my perspective, I will always be in the former camp as the latter requires something to come from nothing (laws from non-laws, truth from non-truth, life from non-life, etc). Observation apart, discoveries in Physics (e.g. Newton's conservation of xxx laws) contradict that, and it is the contradiction (i.e. a demonstration that it isn't possible) that has made my mind up.

If something can't come from nothing, how did your version of god come into being?

[Walter]

If something can't come from nothing, how did your version of god come into being?

the problem is their misunderstanding of the concept of 'nothing'

[ippy]

It's not just the stuff they teach at schools, you'd think with all of the education and all of the readily available information at the touch of a fingertip, religion should be off on its way, but unfortunately the religionists have left us with this continuing legacy of a kind of self replication that entreats so many to fall hook line and sinker for their myths and the rest.

Nobody really wants to persecute religionists whatever the religion might be, it's only infighters among the various religions that seems to me to be the ones doing the persecution and very few others; all of these religionists should be free to believe whatever they want to believe. 

Having said the above every time it's suggested that religion should be for private sphere, those that suggest this are, deemed by the religious, to be persecuting them?

Most of the adult people here in the UK have the right to vote and that's should be the starting and finishing point of where religious opinion should count in any way toward the running of this country, if and when we reach this happy state perhaps we will be hearing a lot less about the inns and outs of these primitive beliefs, it seems pretty obvious to me that the only thing that enables religion to punch over its weight here are the numerous privileges they have here in the UK and it will take some time before we rid ourselves of those privileges in an attempt to create a level playing field.

Perhaps along with doing away with these privileges it might accelerate the already exponential decline of these beliefs, perhaps it's the privileges that are a part of why so many still have these religious beliefs?       

ippy

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

I agree with you, Sword.  Tell people "This is what I believe", if they are interested but not, "This is how it is".
If they are sufficiently interested in beliefs, they will also want to know about other beliefs and eventually do some research.

Thank you Brownie. 

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

Agreed, Sword.
What they do with those teachings is up to them.

Thank you Anchorman.