Author Topic: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?  (Read 29038 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #125 on: November 05, 2016, 10:21:43 PM »
Hope,

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...it is only assumed that they hadn't actually died...

It's also "only assumed" that leprechauns don't leave pots of gold at the ends of rainbows. Just out of interest, how would you propose to calculate the odds of a very small number of people misdiagnosing clinical deaths against the odds of genuine re-incarnations that flatly contradict the overwhelming juggernaut of evidence to the effect that such things do not happen?
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Gordon

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #126 on: November 05, 2016, 10:43:07 PM »
I hope that those aren't the only sources, Gordon.  I'd hope that any caring professional will have a love of the subject, a concern for the welfare of others - to name but two.  That said, they will also need a mental capacity to learn and a probably a love of learning as well.

As I said: talent, training and experience which covers the intelligence and vocational aspects. Most I worked with, which was quite a few, were also caring people in general and in relation to their work, and bearing in mind the duration of training and acquiring post-qualification experience followed by further specialist training medics to tend to have a strong sense of vocation - but so what: there and many people in all walks of life with similar attributes and a sense of commitment. However there are also some whose qualities are less commendable.     

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I understand that the human brain is the least 'evolved' organ since the time that homo sapiens first appeared on earth.

On what basis is this your understanding?

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In fact, thousands of years after we stopped needing them , the human body includes a number of other obsolete organs.

So what?


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http://www.oddee.com/item_98718.aspx  I agree that some of these could have been errors as a result of poor medical facilities - but not all.

Not much of a recommendation so surprised you bothered to post it, so on that basis I won't bother thanks. Got anything more substantive?   

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Similarly, articles like this - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/14/waking-morgue-death-janina-kolkiewicz.  I accept that may seem to be arguing that it doesn't occur, but with many of the examples, it is only assumed that they hadn't actually died - there are no references to results of tests carried out after the event.

Did you bother to actually read this? The final paragraph opens with 'So people can be mistaken for dead' and the article notes:

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In Mutora’s case it was thought that the atropine he was given by medical staff to counteract the insecticide may have made him appear dead (it slows heart rate). With Williams, meanwhile, much has been made of the fact that the coroner who pronounced him dead, Dexter Howard, was an elected official who didn’t have a medical degree, as is the case in many US states. UK coroners may also have a medical or law degree, but the difference is they don’t have the power to pronounce people dead. That is left to medically trained staff – and for good reason.

So this article is about variable or poor clinical standards - no resurrections involved. 

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As far as I'm aware, there are no medical tests that can be used to confirm whether the person had wrongly been confirmed as dead, or had actually died and then recovered.

It is quite simple: provided you aren't trying to portray the interval between imminent clinical death, such as via cardiac arrest, and medical intervention being successful in averting clinical death (albeit this may be temporary) then in relation to UK standards those certified as being clinically dead remain dead. I'd estimate that during the early part of my NHS career I was involved with several dozens of in-hospital deaths: there were no mistakes, and given the popularity of cremations in many cases you'd need two qualified medics to make a mistake with the same deceased person.

Had this ever happened (it didn't) it would result in an investigation given the incompetence involved with no doubt referral to professional standards people etc and of course since death certificates are legal documents there would involvement  from the Registrar and as such there would be documentary evidence. If you're convinced that dead people don't stay dead then you'll need more than an opinion piece in the Guardian that is in any event about mistakes and not 'resurrections'.     
 
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Surely it is you who ought to be producing the evidence for this point - after all, I've simply reported that there is very little, perhaps even none.

Nope - it seems you raised a non-point that I punted straight back to you: if you are acknowledging there is little or no evidence why did you even bother posting as you did in the first place?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 11:14:16 PM by Gordon »

Owlswing

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #127 on: November 05, 2016, 10:46:56 PM »

. . .  if you are acknowledging there is little or no evidence why did you even bother posting as you did in the first place?


Sheer force of habit?
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #128 on: November 06, 2016, 05:01:49 PM »
Hope,

It's also "only assumed" that leprechauns don't leave pots of gold at the ends of rainbows.
I think Google earth would have turned up a few. Queue Hillside on revising statement and definitions to fit.

Hope

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #129 on: November 06, 2016, 05:18:26 PM »
Just out of interest, how would you propose to calculate the odds of a very small number of people misdiagnosing clinical deaths against the odds of genuine re-incarnations that flatly contradict the overwhelming juggernaut of evidence to the effect that such things do not happen?
blue, what 'overwhelming juggernaut of evidence' would that be?  It's rather like the famous 'spontaneous healing' argument that non-believers like to give when faced by examples of recoveries that have no medical explanation.
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Owlswing

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #130 on: November 06, 2016, 06:14:18 PM »

I think Google earth would have turned up a few. Queue Hillside on revising statement and definitions to fit.


Cue (please note correct spelling) Vlad taking things to an illogical extreme.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #131 on: November 06, 2016, 06:19:40 PM »


NS is an athiest?
Since when?

About the same length of time as you've been a theist. On which I can still say that if you have something in your life that gives you as much as your theism does for you, good. You are a sterling advert for your beliefs.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 06:21:43 PM by Nearly Sane »

Walter

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #132 on: November 07, 2016, 02:34:12 PM »
blue, what 'overwhelming juggernaut of evidence' would that be?  It's rather like the famous 'spontaneous healing' argument that non-believers like to give when faced by examples of recoveries that have no medical explanation.

And the bollox continues. At what point will you just STOP?
Either prove it or shut up.

floo

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #133 on: November 11, 2016, 11:41:04 AM »
blue, what 'overwhelming juggernaut of evidence' would that be?  It's rather like the famous 'spontaneous healing' argument that non-believers like to give when faced by examples of recoveries that have no medical explanation.

A dead person stays dead, sometimes they are thought to be dead when in reality they aren't.  As for spontaneous cures, yes they do happen occasionally and no doubt science will provide the answer sooner or later. Why attribute them to a supernatural entity, which in all probability doesn't exist? If god can and does heal people in answer to prayer why doesn't it heal everyone one instead of so very few? I wait for the excuse, that god knows best!

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #134 on: November 11, 2016, 12:57:14 PM »
If god can and does heal people in answer to prayer why doesn't it heal everyone one instead of so very few?
Have you tried asking God this question Floo?
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #135 on: November 11, 2016, 01:10:26 PM »
Have you tried asking God this question Floo?
Have you?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walter

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #136 on: November 11, 2016, 06:53:44 PM »
Have you tried asking God this question Floo?

I'm tired of your inane shite now, I hope you are not in any kind of position of authority over impressionable people in the real world. As long as  you confine your bollox to this forum where it's all a bit of a game where we can laugh at you and watch you squirm.
And perhaps you can admit you are just W.U.M.   

go on , admit it.

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #137 on: November 11, 2016, 07:17:03 PM »
...where we can laugh at you and watch you squirm.
Don't think I'm the one squirming somehow. More like the poster below:

I'm tired of your inane shite now
And the person who is forcing you to post here and read the posts of Christians is...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 07:20:21 PM by SwordOfTheSpirit »
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Walter

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #138 on: November 11, 2016, 07:23:04 PM »
Don't think I'm the one squirming somehow. More like the poster below:And the person who is forcing you to post here and read the posts of Christians is...

before I answer this , please confirm your rantings are confined to this forum and not the real world

SusanDoris

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #139 on: November 12, 2016, 08:35:35 AM »
before I answer this , please confirm your rantings are confined to this forum and not the real world
Yes, agreed. I am naturally an optimist, but it does sadden me to think of all the millions of children in the future who will be told that 'God is true' etc before, finally, the real world, humanism, non-belief and a clear distinction between fact and fiction assumes the majority position.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #140 on: November 12, 2016, 11:09:29 AM »
Yes, agreed. I am naturally an optimist, but it does sadden me to think of all the millions of children in the future who will be told that 'God is true' etc before, finally, the real world, humanism, non-belief and a clear distinction between fact and fiction assumes the majority position.
The world of Susan Doris doesn't feel like the truth to me.
It seems a transient thing with any ''permanence'' borrowed from cultural Christianity.

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #141 on: November 12, 2016, 02:27:18 PM »
Quote from: SusanDoris
Yes, agreed. I am naturally an optimist, but it does sadden me to think of all the millions of children in the future who will be told that 'God is true' etc before, finally, the real world, humanism, non-belief and a clear distinction between fact and fiction assumes the majority position.
The world of Susan Doris doesn't feel like the truth to me.
It seems a transient thing with any ''permanence'' borrowed from cultural Christianity.
And interestingly, SusanDoris' post makes exactly the same mistake as adherents of religious belief are accused of doing.

I would have expected SusanDoris to advocate the approach of presenting both sides and allowing the individual to make their own mind up. Alternatively, provide evidence to justify the stance below:
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before, finally, the real world, humanism, non-belief and a clear distinction between fact and fiction assumes the majority position.
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #142 on: November 12, 2016, 02:56:38 PM »
And interestingly, SusanDoris' post makes exactly the same mistake as adherents of religious belief are accused of doing.

I would have expected SusanDoris to advocate the approach of presenting both sides and allowing the individual to make their own mind up. Alternatively, provide evidence to justify the stance below:
Both sides?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walter

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #143 on: November 12, 2016, 03:40:01 PM »
SotS


There is no '

Walter

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #144 on: November 12, 2016, 03:40:40 PM »
'BOTH SIDES'

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #145 on: November 12, 2016, 03:54:15 PM »
Both sides?
Those that have a religious belief, and those that don't.
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Walter

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #146 on: November 12, 2016, 04:17:41 PM »
Those that have a religious belief, and those that don't.

perhaps the more ridicule you get , the closer to god you feel. Is that it , is that what's going on here?

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #147 on: November 12, 2016, 04:24:38 PM »
perhaps the more ridicule you get , the closer to god you feel. Is that it , is that what's going on here?
No.

As I've responded to you elsewhere, the truth (or otherwise) of a statement is not affected by how much it is ridiculed. So the fact that this appears to be the only approach you have shows me that your position is not based on anything you can back up as being true (provable or even what you believe).

Maybe you could convince me otherwise?  ;)
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Walter

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #148 on: November 12, 2016, 05:26:54 PM »
No.

As I've responded to you elsewhere, the truth (or otherwise) of a statement is not affected by how much it is ridiculed. So the fact that this appears to be the only approach you have shows me that your position is not based on anything you can back up as being true (provable or even what you believe).

Maybe you could convince me otherwise?  ;)

I am not prepared to 'debate' with you. By doing so would imply there is value in what yo say. Until you can offer ANY EVIDENCE to support YOUR CLAIMS I shall keep up with the ridicule, if I can be bothered.

Hope

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Re: Why do so many still have these religious beliefs?
« Reply #149 on: November 12, 2016, 09:13:27 PM »
I am not prepared to 'debate' with you. By doing so would imply there is value in what yo say. Until you can offer ANY EVIDENCE to support YOUR CLAIMS I shall keep up with the ridicule, if I can be bothered.
If you are not prepared to debate with someone here, why should they offer anything in the knowledge that you will ignore it anyway, Walter?  Remember that the majority of the evidence people of faith will offer will, of necessity, be outside the scope of the narrow physical definition of the term that folk like you insist on using.
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