Brexit - the next steps

[bluehillside Retd.]

ippy,

I've read your post Proff, I don't remember being asked anything about the best of three or say best of five or anything else like that, leave won the day remain didn't, as far as I'm concerned that's it.

I can appreciate how bitter this pill is for remainers but there, it was plainly stated, presented, or however you wish to put it, as a vote to leave or remain your side well, you know the rest.

You're missing the point still. No matter how bitter the pill, if the referendum had been legitimate - not one won the basis of a prospectus full of untruths, not illegally funded, not pivoted round a question so vague that any version of the outcome is said to be "what the people voted for" - then that pill would indeed have to be swallowed regardless of how catastrophic the results.

The actual problem though is that the referendum wasn't legitimately held at all. It's not a question of being asked to vote multiple times; it's a question of being asked to vote just once but on a legitimate process rather than a corrupted one. 

[ippy]

ippy,

You're missing the point still. No matter how bitter the pill, if the referendum had been legitimate - not one won the basis of a prospectus full of untruths, not illegally funded, not pivoted round a question so vague that any version of the outcome is said to be "what the people voted for" - then that pill would indeed have to be swallowed regardless of how catastrophic the results.

The actual problem though is that the referendum wasn't legitimately held at all. It's not a question of being asked to vote multiple times; it's a question of being asked to vote just once but on a legitimate process rather than a corrupted one.

There again we don't or are ever likely to agree I see asking to remain or leave easy to understand you don't agree and it just seems to me you're  side is doing more and more wriggling because your side  didn't get its own way in as I see it a legitimately constructed choice, A or B if you like.

All of this you didn't do this, they should have done that or whatever is irrelevant to me, a pointless argument and any kind of reversal would be going against fundamental democratic principles as far as I'm concerned, leave won, I doubt we'll even agree on that.

We're all hard liners on this when it comes to it yours or my arguments are at an impasse and were at an impasse back in 16 therefore referendum.

All of the information I wanted about whether I wanted to be in or out of the EU was there many years ago and I never have wanted to be a part of the EU especially ever closer union just one, a big one, amongst loads of other reasons, leavers weren't sleepwalking over your cliff the BBC keeps on shouting out for you, we just take a view that differs from yours, none of us are idiots we're not going to be convinced by anything you say and visa versa the other way.

So I'll take it you don't want a Stuka Manual then.

Regards, ippy.

 

[bluehillside Retd.]

ippy,

There again we don't or are ever likely to agree I see asking to remain or leave easy to understand you don't agree and it just seems to me you're  side is doing more and more wriggling because your side  didn't get its own way in as I see it a legitimately constructed choice, A or B if you like.

All of this you didn't do this, they should have done that or whatever is irrelevant to me, a pointless argument and any kind of reversal would be going against fundamental democratic principles as far as I'm concerned, leave won, I doubt we'll even agree on that.

We're all hard liners on this when it comes to it yours or my arguments are at an impasse and were at an impasse back in 16 therefore referendum.

All of the information I wanted about whether I wanted to be in or out of the EU was there many years ago and I never have wanted to be a part of the EU especially ever closer union just one, a big one, amongst loads of other reasons, leavers weren't sleepwalking over your cliff the BBC keeps on shouting out for you, we just take a view that differs from yours, none of us are idiots we're not going to be convinced by anything you say and visa versa the other way.

But still you're not addressing the point. If when the rusty old Austin Metro arrived you rang me to complain it wasn't the Aston as promised, and I replied to you as you just did you wouldn't (presumably) accept that your decision was legitimately made. It's precisely because democracy matters that its processes have to be legitimate - the result cannot be won with lies, the funding cannot be unlawful, the options have to be meaningful etc. We can disagree about the wisdom or otherwise of leaving the EU as much as you like, but the corruption of the process is unquestionable. When Russia announces that, say, 90% voted for Putin do you think, "well good - that's democracy at work then" or do you smell a rat and conclude that there's nothing democratic about that at all?     

So I'll take it you don't want a Stuka Manual then.

No thanks - I'm a Messerschmitt 109 man myself 

[Stranger]

There again we don't or are ever likely to agree I see asking to remain or leave easy to understand you don't agree and it just seems to me you're  side is doing more and more wriggling because your side  didn't get its own way in as I see it a legitimately constructed choice, A or B if you like.

All of this you didn't do this, they should have done that or whatever is irrelevant to me, a pointless argument and any kind of reversal would be going against fundamental democratic principles as far as I'm concerned, leave won, I doubt we'll even agree on that.

Once again - you're are just repeating your dogmas and not actually arguing your point of view in any rational way. You haven't justified what you think is wrong with membership of the EU (except you don't like it) and you haven't even attempted to justify blindly following the referendum result despite the very different situation we find ourselves in now, compared to what was presented to the voters at the time.

All of the information I wanted about whether I wanted to be in or out of the EU was there many years ago and I never have wanted to be a part of the EU especially ever closer union just one, a big one, amongst loads of other reasons...

Why won't you even give us one reason (you never wanting to be in it, isn't a reason, it's your conclusion)?

...leavers weren't sleepwalking over your cliff the BBC keeps on shouting out for you...

Back to blind faith and misinformation. It's not the BBC that has made up a cliff, it's pretty much all the experts who should know about these things. Even the government's own assessment has spoken of food and medicine shortages and other potential consequences that no sane, rational government would risk exposing its citizens to by choice. Even a government committed to leaving doesn't have to risk a no-deal.

[Gordon]

You have to laugh at the irony of Tory politicians saying they would never support the interim government approach of preventing no-deal if it meant installed Corbyn as PM for a limited period - when the Tory party have just inflicted upon us a PM who is a lying, incompetent, self-serving fuckwit.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gordon,

You have to laugh at the irony of Tory politicians saying they would never support the interim government approach of preventing no-deal if it meant installed Corbyn as PM for a limited period - when the Tory party have just inflicted upon us a PM who is a lying, incompetent, self-serving fuckwit.

It's being referred to as the Meatloaf position apparently: "I would do anything for (no no deal), but I won't do that". 

[ippy]

ippy,

But still you're not addressing the point. If when the rusty old Austin Metro arrived you rang me to complain it wasn't the Aston as promised, and I replied to you as you just did you wouldn't (presumably) accept that your decision was legitimately made. It's precisely because democracy matters that its processes have to be legitimate - the result cannot be won with lies, the funding cannot be unlawful, the options have to be meaningful etc. We can disagree about the wisdom or otherwise of leaving the EU as much as you like, but the corruption of the process is unquestionable. When Russia announces that, say, 90% voted for Putin do you think, "well good - that's democracy at work then" or do you smell a rat and conclude that there's nothing democratic about that at all?     

No thanks - I'm a Messerschmitt 109 man myself 

I've no intention to be drawn into any kind of endless equivalent of a musical rondo, we wont either of us of any side find a meeting point.

I feel I'm looking beyond the rather obvious rough and tumble inevitably involved when we do leave the EU.

I also dread to think how we would be treated all over the world if we were seen to wimpishly have allowed ourselves to be cheated out of the leave decision, please sir Mr EU can we come back we didn't really mean it; no thanks.

There are so many reasons other than ever closer union that leaving the EU will resolve not much that there, if anything we'd agree about.

The referendum was democratic in my estimation something else we're never going to agree about.

Overall warts and all I'm really pleased with the ref result and again I don't see   any significant numbers that even give a hint of corruption the result was app 48 52 not anywhere near 90% of which if it were that sort of 90 percentage of course questions would have had to be asked, something else where we're never going to agree.

Regards, ippy

 

[ippy]

Once again - you're are just repeating your dogmas and not actually arguing your point of view in any rational way. You haven't justified what you think is wrong with membership of the EU (except you don't like it) and you haven't even attempted to justify blindly following the referendum result despite the very different situation we find ourselves in now, compared to what was presented to the voters at the time.

Why won't you even give us one reason (you never wanting to be in it, isn't a reason, it's your conclusion)?

Back to blind faith and misinformation. It's not the BBC that has made up a cliff, it's pretty much all the experts who should know about these things. Even the government's own assessment has spoken of food and medicine shortages and other potential consequences that no sane, rational government would risk exposing its citizens to by choice. Even a government committed to leaving doesn't have to risk a no-deal.

What is it about me saying I don't think remain and leave supporters will ever agree on this one that's so difficult to understand, I'm not likely to change my mind about brexit neither are the remainers, I'm sorry but I remain delighted by the result. something we're never going to see eye to eye on.

Let's all start to make a success of leaving.

Regards, ippy.

 

[Gordon]

Let's all start to make a success of leaving.

Regards, ippy.

Nope: let's hope the politicians, such as they are, have enough sense to stop this no-deal madness, and then let the electorate have the final say.

[Stranger]

I've no intention to be drawn into any kind of endless equivalent of a musical rondo, we wont either of us side find a meeting point.

So long as you just repeat your dogma, I don't see it being anything else - why don't you try actually posting some of your reasoning?

I also dread to think how we would be treated all over the world if we were seen to wimpishly have allowed ourselves to be cheated out of the leave decision, please sir Mr EU can we come back we didn't really mean it; no thanks.

Since the younger generations are pro-EU by a large majority, that's pretty much inevitable eventually. And you do understand that we're already a laughing stock, yes?

There are so many reasons other than ever closer union that leaving the EU will resolve not much that there, if anything we'd agree about.

But you haven't even said why you think that is a reason - nor have you addressed the fact that Cameron got us an opt-out.

The referendum was democratic in my estimation something else we're never going to agree about.

And you won't say on what grounds you dismiss the problems with it. Even if some people just wanted to leave on blind faith (like you, as far as I can tell from all you've said), rather than any details about the what it would be like - do you really imagine nobody who voted leave did so because of the picture painted by the leave campaign? All that money for the NHS - the easiest free trade deal in human history. None of them?

[Stranger]

Let's all start to make a success of leaving.

Try telling that to the people who'll lose their jobs.

One of the little mentioned parts of the leaked government paper was that it would disproportionately affect low-income groups. There's a rude awakening coming if we do leave with no deal.

[ProfessorDavey]

Let's all start to make a success of leaving.

Your government doesn't have to spend billions mitigating the negative effects of something if will be a success.

[jeremyp]

There again we don't or are ever likely to agree I see asking to remain or leave easy to understand you don't agree and it just seems to me you're  side is doing more and more wriggling because your side  didn't get its own way in as I see it a legitimately constructed choice, A or B if you like.

All of this you didn't do this, they should have done that or whatever is irrelevant to me, a pointless argument and any kind of reversal would be going against fundamental democratic principles as far as I'm concerned, leave won, I doubt we'll even agree on that.

We're all hard liners on this when it comes to it yours or my arguments are at an impasse and were at an impasse back in 16 therefore referendum.

All of the information I wanted about whether I wanted to be in or out of the EU was there many years ago and I never have wanted to be a part of the EU especially ever closer union just one, a big one, amongst loads of other reasons, leavers weren't sleepwalking over your cliff the BBC keeps on shouting out for you, we just take a view that differs from yours, none of us are idiots we're not going to be convinced by anything you say and visa versa the other way.

So I'll take it you don't want a Stuka Manual then.

Regards, ippy.

 

Will you please shut up about not agreeing. Of course we don’t agree with you. But I still want to know why you think you personally are disadvantaged by being in the EU or how you think not being in the EU is going to make your life better. I can think of several reasons why I am better off as an EU citizen.

Your refusal to enumerate the practical benefits of leaving the EU just makes you look like a cultist. You really aren’t doing yourself any favours.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ippy,

The referendum was democratic in my estimation something else we're never going to agree about.

But it’s not a question of opinion – it’s an issue of facts. The Electoral Commission did find that the leave campaign broke funding law, many of the promises made by the leave campaign are now demonstrably not true (which is why incidentally people like Leadsom have shifted ground, bizarrely, to, “well even though none of it was true the people knew it wasn’t true because that’s that the remain campaign told them, so they must have known they were voting to be poorer so we’ll carry that out anyway”), the question was framed such that no matter what version of Brexit emerges the liars and ignoramuses will claim, “and that’s what 17.2m people voted for” when that necessarily cannot be the case.

In other words, the only way we can not agree about this is if you persist in ignoring the evidence to hand. 

Let's all start to make a success of leaving.

There is no success from leaving. The irony of “you lost, get over it” is that we all lost – and the biggest losers of all will be the poor and vulnerable who most voted for it. The only winners are the fund managers betting on the UK economy tanking (having taken care to relocate their funds outside the UK so they don’t come down with it) and (quite possibly) the Russian interests who paid for it.

Just walking away from some 160 trade deals we benefit from as part of the EU, high quality food and drugs standards, decent workers' rights, economic and diplomatic influence as part of one of the Big three trading blocs, quite possibly the continuance of the UK & NI, the freedom to work and settle anywhere in the EU etc, in exchange for – well, what exactly? – is an epic act of self harm.

In short: becoming an isolated, irrelevant, intolerant, impoverished little backwater isn’t my idea of “success” I’m afraid.       

[Gordon]

A Cartesian view (red for me).

https://www.facebook.com/commerce/products/1644935758883651/

[ippy]

So long as you just repeat your dogma, I don't see it being anything else - why don't you try actually posting some of your reasoning?

Since the younger generations are pro-EU by a large majority, that's pretty much inevitable eventually. And you do understand that we're already a laughing stock, yes?

But you haven't even said why you think that is a reason - nor have you addressed the fact that Cameron got us an opt-out.

And you won't say on what grounds you dismiss the problems with it. Even if some people just wanted to leave on blind faith (like you, as far as I can tell from all you've said), rather than any details about the what it would be like - do you really imagine nobody who voted leave did so because of the picture painted by the leave campaign? All that money for the NHS - the easiest free trade deal in human history. None of them?

I thought I had made it plain why I'll not be drawn into an endless argument, I didn't think I was being that complicated.

Regards, ippy.

[ippy]

Nope: let's hope the politicians, such as they are, have enough sense to stop this no-deal madness, and then let the electorate have the final say.

Like I said.

Regards, ippy.

[Aruntraveller]

I thought I had made it plain why I'll not be drawn into an endless argument, I didn't think I was being that complicated.

Regards, ippy.

You are right. You are not that complicated.

[ippy]

ippy,

But it’s not a question of opinion – it’s an issue of facts. The Electoral Commission did find that the leave campaign broke funding law, many of the promises made by the leave campaign are now demonstrably not true (which is why incidentally people like Leadsom have shifted ground, bizarrely, to, “well even though none of it was true the people knew it wasn’t true because that’s that the remain campaign told them, so they must have known they were voting to be poorer so we’ll carry that out anyway”), the question was framed such that no matter what version of Brexit emerges the liars and ignoramuses will claim, “and that’s what 17.2m people voted for” when that necessarily cannot be the case.

In other words, the only way we can not agree about this is if you persist in ignoring the evidence to hand. 

There is no success from leaving. The irony of “you lost, get over it” is that we all lost – and the biggest losers of all will be the poor and vulnerable who most voted for it. The only winners are the fund managers betting on the UK economy tanking (having taken care to relocate their funds outside the UK so they don’t come down with it) and (quite possibly) the Russian interests who paid for it.

Just walking away from some 160 trade deals we benefit from as part of the EU, high quality food and drugs standards, decent workers' rights, economic and diplomatic influence as part of one of the Big three trading blocs, quite possibly the continuance of the UK & NI, the freedom to work and settle anywhere in the EU etc, in exchange for – well, what exactly? – is an epic act of self harm.

In short: becoming an isolated, irrelevant, intolerant, impoverished little backwater isn’t my idea of “success” I’m afraid.     

Well there you are I read the facts in an other way to you I can't see any way we'd ever agree.

Regards, ippy.

[ippy]

You are right. You are not that complicated.

Fair enough if that's what you wish to think it's all yours Trent.

Regards, ippy.

[SteveH]

A Cartesian view (red for me).

https://www.facebook.com/commerce/products/1644935758883651/

Putting Descartes before the horse.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ippy,

Well there you are I read the facts in an other way to you I can't see any way we'd ever agree.

Doesn't work. You can't (to take just one example) "read the fact" of the breaking of electoral funding law "in other ways". It's just a fact. You might not think it a significant fact, you might not think it a fact that you like, you might not anything. It's still though a fact - and a fact moreover that ordinarily would have a significant effect on the legitimacy of the result only for some reason in this case we're just supposed to ignore it. 

[Aruntraveller]

Fair enough if that's what you wish to think it's all yours Trent.

Regards, ippy.

Just agreeing with you for the first time in awhile 

[Stranger]

I thought I had made it plain why I'll not be drawn into an endless argument, I didn't think I was being that complicated.

So why keep posting about it?

You seem to want to post your views without having them challenged and without having to justify them in any way. You appear to be doing an Alan, you want to keep preaching but you won't engage with the rational arguments...

[ippy]

ippy,

Doesn't work. You can't (to take just one example) "read the fact" of the breaking of electoral funding law "in other ways". It's just a fact. You might not think it a significant fact, you might not think it a fact that you like, you might not anything. It's still though a fact - and a fact moreover that ordinarily would have a significant effect on the legitimacy of the result only for some reason in this case we're just supposed to ignore it.

As I've said before many times the decision to leave or remain is mainly achieved by doing your own sum of overall judgement of all of the facts as as each individual sees them and I dare say your ideas about facts are entirely real to you, you're entitled to hold those views but there are some things that are so no go for me they easily in my judgement trump your facts, we're never going to see eye to eye on this brexit issue.

Their's no point in going into yours or my ideas about brexit I totally detest the remain view as I dare say it's equally the same for remainers probably worse because you lost the vote, so again for the umpteenth time we're never going to agree on this one.

I wish you well even though I think your views on brexit stink.

Regards, ippy.