Brexit - the next steps

[jeremyp]

The whole remain argument once they lost has been leavers are stupid

No the remain argument is

1. This will be disastrous for the UK
2. The Leavers were lied to, not just by the leaders of the campaign but also by the media over decades.

The thing is leavers knew exactly what they were voting for.

They knew they were voting for the destruction of the UK, the resumption of hostilities in NI, the rape of the economy and making enemies of all our neighbours?

Why in fuck's name did they vote for Brexit?

The question was simple. And we must remember it wasn't just a Tory versus Labour thing either. Many leave voters were Labour voters, a party which traditionally has been Eurosceptic.

What's that got to do with anything?

[ProfessorDavey]

The thing is leavers knew exactly what they were voting for.

Really - have you spoken to all of them.

But there is a broader point. How could they have known what they were voting for given that the nature of the 'leaving' was not, and could not have, been known at the time of the referendum. That doesn't mean that leavers were stupid, but that they were voting for something which hadn't been worked out at that point.

And all you need to do to demonstrate the veracity of this view is to look at 'leaver' on 'leaver' action with, for example Farage and the ERG claiming that anyone supporting a May-type deal isn't in fact a brexiteer as May's deal isn't brexit.

[Harrowby Hall]

   
Just a pity they didn't have Beethoven's Ode to Joy instead of that Imperialistic Land of Hope and Glory claptrap.

Elgar wrote a set of marches - which he called Pomp and Circumstance. The march played at the Last Night is the first in that series. He did not write Land of Hope and Glory. The trio section of the march was hi-jacked later and words added by someone else. "Pomp and circumstance" is a quotation from Othello, and is part of a highly ironic, bitter speech made by Othello after he realises the depth of the deception by the treacherous Iago.

Elgar's marches are first-rate examples of the musical form. They are not claptrap. Elgar himself was not an imperialist and was deeply saddened by the use of his march (and other music) during WW1.

The Last Night of the Proms is a party. Ode to Joy would be totally out of place.

END OF DERAIL

The point that I was hoping to make was simply that here was a public event at which a noticeably large number of people were demonstrating their apparent opposition to the potential disaster facing us.

[ippy]

No the remain argument is

1. This will be disastrous for the UK
2. The Leavers were lied to, not just by the leaders of the campaign but also by the media over decades.
They knew they were voting for the destruction of the UK, the resumption of hostilities in NI, the rape of the economy and making enemies of all our neighbours?

Why in fuck's name did they vote for Brexit?
What's that got to do with anything?

All in your opinion jp, which of course you're entitled to have.

I never did want to be tied to this European dream ever since the very beginning and jumped for joy at the opportunity to vote against it in 2016.

The time that creep Brown crept away shame faced to Lisbon avoiding every bit of publicity he possibly could sealed it for me, I wouldn't have been surprised if I was told that he'd he'd taken the crown jewels with him to give away too the underhanded dealing bastard, on top of all that, I don't like him either.

Regards, ippy.

   

[Stranger]

I never did want to be tied to this European dream ever since the very beginning and jumped for joy at the opportunity to vote against it in 2016.

That's nice for you but you still don't seem able or willing to say in what way the UK being a part of this "European dream" has made your life so bad that you're prepared to see real damage to real people's lives and livelihoods, in order to be rid of it. Nor can you give any way in which you expect it to improve if/when we leave.

You seem perfectly happy to see real suffering inflicted on people (apparently) just so you, and people like you, can have a warm fuzzy feeling that your country isn't part of some "European dream".

[Gordon]

Seems there is a flaw in the Benn Act (see link below) that clashes with the already active 2018 Withdrawal Act, which explains reports that Johnson thinks there is a way around the Benn Act that still keeps a 'no deal' exit as an option.

It depends on Johnson getting the HoC to agree a revised withdrawal deal by the 19th Oct, since the requirement of the Benn Act that he seek an extension from the EU would fall away. If so then the existing 2018 Withdrawal Act kicks in, and this requires that further ratification must be passed by the HOC before the 31st October in order that the revised EU exit deal to become law - all Johnson et al need do then is prevent these further requirements of the 2018 Withdrawal Act getting through the HoC by the end of October and the default is then a 'no deal' Brexit. There are already reports of a further prorogation being mooted for immediately after any new EU exit deal had been passed by the HoC (by 19th Oct) so as to prevent the subsequent ratification steps getting through the HoC in time.

Hopefully, now that this is in the public domain, the HoC will refuse to pass any deal presented by Johnson (if he has one, which isn't certain) by the 19th Oct so that the Benn Act then applies, since the HoC agreeing a revised EU exit deal could, ironically, lead to a 'no deal' Brexit. If they can do that then the Benn Act would apply, and if Johnson then refuses to request an extension as required by that act then hopefully the Court of Session in Edinburgh will decide to do it for him.

Hard to square this type of Machiavellian manoeuvring with 'bringing the country together'. 

https://waitingfortax.com/2019/09/15/the-flaw-in-the-benn-act/

[Anchorman]

Elgar wrote a set of marches - which he called Pomp and Circumstance. The march played at the Last Night is the first in that series. He did not write Land of Hope and Glory. The trio section of the march was hi-jacked later and words added by someone else. "Pomp and circumstance" is a quotation from Othello, and is part of a highly ironic, bitter speech made by Othello after he realises the depth of the deception by the treacherous Iago. Elgar's marches are first-rate examples of the musical form. They are not claptrap. Elgar himself was not an imperialist and was deeply saddened by the use of his march (and other music) during WW1. The Last Night of the Proms is a party. Ode to Joy would be totally out of place. END OF DERAIL The point that I was hoping to make was simply that here was a public event at which a noticeably large number of people were demonstrating their apparent opposition to the potential disaster facing us.

I have Elgar's 'pomp and circumstance' - which is why I referred to "tat 'land of hope and glory claptrap"'. I don't like the Christian hmyn words slapped onto the tune by the otherwise laudable All souls Orchestra as part of their 'Prom Praise', either.

[Harrowby Hall]

I have Elgar's 'pomp and circumstance' - which is why I referred to "tat 'land of hope and glory claptrap"'. I don't like the Christian hmyn words slapped onto the tune by the otherwise laudable All souls Orchestra as part of their 'Prom Praise', either.

OK - I take your point - and probably agree. But having attended the Last Night on three occasions (back in the time of Malcolm Sargent) the event does have a special significance for me.

[ippy]

That's nice for you but you still don't seem able or willing to say in what way the UK being a part of this "European dream" has made your life so bad that you're prepared to see real damage to real people's lives and livelihoods, in order to be rid of it. Nor can you give any way in which you expect it to improve if/when we leave.



You seem perfectly happy to see real suffering inflicted on people (apparently) just so you, and people like you, can have a warm fuzzy feeling that your country isn't part of some "European dream".

You seem to think leaving the EU is all bad when most of the doom & gloom evidence we hear and have heard about actual leaving forecasts have proved to be wrong, it's not going to be me to remind you of these, in these instances I'm not going to be your man.

If you were to say you haven't heard the gloom and doom forecasts that proved to be  wrong where have you been?

Their's going to be good and bad for various groups of people whichever way leaving or remain goes we obviously differ on which choice is the best, that's fine by me but I know I'll not be changing my mind probably much the same as yourself.
 
Regards, ippy.

[Roses]

I think leaving the EU will be very bad for Britain, I can't think of any positive outcome, we need them they need us.

[Gordon]

You seem to think leaving the EU is all bad when most of the doom & gloom evidence we hear and have heard about actual leaving forecasts have proved to be wrong, it's not going to be me to remind you of these, in these instances I'm not going to be your man.

Some citations would be nice, ippy, else it could be concluded that you might have been taken in by propaganda - for example, which of these forecasts would you say are factually wrong? After all, if you say some forecasts are wrong then you must know which forecasts you are referring to.

[Outrider]

All in your opinion jp, which of course you're entitled to have.

Not really - in the opinion of pretty much every independent financial and social analytical paper or commentary that's been published, in the view of the civil service's various departments briefings, in the opinion of an extremely wide range of industry bodies...

I never did want to be tied to this European dream ever since the very beginning and jumped for joy at the opportunity to vote against it in 2016.

Good for you. There are third world countries you can emigrate to, you don't need to try and turn Britain into one.

The time that creep Brown crept away shame faced to Lisbon avoiding every bit of publicity he possibly could sealed it for me, I wouldn't have been surprised if I was told that he'd he'd taken the crown jewels with him to give away too the underhanded dealing bastard, on top of all that, I don't like him either.

Well if that isn't a well-reasoned critique of the remain arguments I don't know what is...

You seem to think leaving the EU is all bad when most of the doom & gloom evidence we hear and have heard about actual leaving forecasts have proved to be wrong, it's not going to be me to remind you of these, in these instances I'm not going to be your man.

Given that we haven't actually left yet, how can you tell? Ignoring, of course, the fact that despite our not having left yet we've already seen a wide range of negative effects; some of those, undoubtedly, are the result of uncertainty about if/when the shit will finally finish circling the fan, but only some of it.

Their's going to be good and bad for various groups of people whichever way leaving or remain goes we obviously differ on which choice is the best, that's fine by me but I know I'll not be changing my mind probably much the same as yourself.

There's going to be readily apparent, short-term, significant quantifiable problems for everyone.  There's going to be a long term lack of opportunities and financial difficulties for an extremely wide range of people, and some opportunities for a limited number of people with influential friends and deep pockets who can weather the hardships, and there's going to be an opportunity for self-congratulatory boners for a small number of ideologically driven free-market wank-jobs who think they've invented Britain 2.0 when they've actually enabled a race to the bottom for anything even vaguely resembling a standard as free-market nodules try to out-America America in the face of pricing undercuts because people who feel rather than think dreamed of olden days with blue passport and Union Jacks flying over the Raj...

O.

[jeremyp]

All in your opinion jp, which of course you're entitled to have.

At least I've got an opinion. I don't run away when asked to justify my Remain stance.

I never did want to be tied to this European dream ever since the very beginning and jumped for joy at the opportunity to vote against it in 2016.

But you have, so far, failed to tell us what is bad about the European dream. You have imposed your view on me. I will lose several freedoms. I think I have a right to know what's so good about being the pariah of Europe.

The time that creep Brown crept away shame faced to Lisbon avoiding every bit of publicity he possibly could sealed it for me, I wouldn't have been surprised if I was told that he'd he'd taken the crown jewels with him to give away too the underhanded dealing bastard, on top of all that, I don't like him either.
 

But that's just irrational nonsense based on your hatred of Gordon Brown. We need to know why you've fucked us over for the next generation or two.

[Anchorman]

 When the incredible Hulk turned into the invisible chicken.
A nice comment from the Dug.
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/09/17/the-blawflummer/

[Christine]

Hi ippy, apologies for the delay replying to your reading recommendation.  The book is a critique of the BBC's output as "liberal" and "left leaning".  Whether that's true or not, I fail to see how it has anything to do with your reasons for wanting to leave the EU.  You still haven't given any arguments as to why you think leaving the EU will be good for the country for me to consider, so I'll continue to assume you haven't got any.

On the subject of the appeal to the Supreme Court, I hope they don't use the get-out that this is political and the courts shouldn't be interested, because that, it seems to me, would give the executive free rein to do anything they like.  The judiciary is another pillar of our "constitution" isn't it?  If it has no restraining power over an over-reaching executive, which is apparently free to ignore parliament, I think we're in trouble.

The most telling thing I've seen in the last few days is the juxtaposition of Johnson telling a press conference in Rotherham that he never said something with a film recording of him saying exactly that thing.  Why would anybody, here or in Europe, believe a word he says? 

[ippy]

Some citations would be nice, ippy, else it could be concluded that you might have been taken in by propaganda - for example, which of these forecasts would you say are factually wrong? After all, if you say some forecasts are wrong then you must know which forecasts you are referring to.

As per the post you're referring to Gordon.

Regards, ippy.

[Aruntraveller]

As per the post you're referring to Gordon.

Regards, ippy.

IF you think that is an answer there is no wonder you are so easily convinced by runaway Boris. The spirit of Churchill incarnate. 

[ippy]

Hi ippy, apologies for the delay replying to your reading recommendation.  The book is a critique of the BBC's output as "liberal" and "left leaning".  Whether that's true or not, I fail to see how it has anything to do with your reasons for wanting to leave the EU.  You still haven't given any arguments as to why you think leaving the EU will be good for the country for me to consider, so I'll continue to assume you haven't got any.

On the subject of the appeal to the Supreme Court, I hope they don't use the get-out that this is political and the courts shouldn't be interested, because that, it seems to me, would give the executive free rein to do anything they like.  The judiciary is another pillar of our "constitution" isn't it?  If it has no restraining power over an over-reaching executive, which is apparently free to ignore parliament, I think we're in trouble.

The most telling thing I've seen in the last few days is the juxtaposition of Johnson telling a press conference in Rotherham that he never said something with a film recording of him saying exactly that thing.  Why would anybody, here or in Europe, believe a word he says?

The difference in views are so at very distant ends to each other that I can't see there's any reason to discuss, in this brexit case neither side will be going along with anything either side thinks or says, thus other than as I have stated before, sovereignty is at the top of my list of quite a few reasons why I think leave is in the long run is the best choice that's it I've no intention to go into fruitless go nowhere arguments with any remainer.

Don't for one minute think I'm a Boris fan, all I've been voting for in the last three and a bit years is for whoever or wherever I think my vote might further the leave the EU cause, I'm certainly not a Tory.

The liberal ideas portrayed by the guardian/BBC they're exactly similar to each other I find both of them mostly infuriating and not just on their views about brexit, the labour party, well you know that old saying, 'they couldn't organise a p'up in a brewery', none of what seem to be mainstream political parties have anything to offer me.

I find it difficult to disagree in almost any way with Douglas Murray's view on most things, he's about as near as I can get to the point of view that makes the most sense to me.

If this courts judgement assists the UK to leave the EU whatever it might be I'm for it, leaving is more important to me than any verdict they give.

We'll never be agreeing on this one Christine. 

Regards ippy

[ippy]

IF you think that is an answer there is no wonder you are so easily convinced by runaway Boris. The spirit of Churchill incarnate. 

I'm not a Boris fan I just think he's the best bet at the moment to take us out of the EU, if three tea bags and a tent post would be successful at getting us out of the EU, in theory I'd vote for them.

Regards, ippy.

[Aruntraveller]

I'm not a Boris fan I just think he's the best bet at the moment to take us out of the EU, if three tea bags and a tent post would be successful at getting us out of the EU, in theory I'd vote for them.

Regards, ippy.

Then you are short sighted indeed. The sheer mendacity and incompetence of the man should be ringing alarm bells inside your head. If he gets us out it will be on terms so bad that even you will beg to return to the EU.

[Roses]

Trump appears to have taught Boris well in the art of stupidity!

[ippy]

Then you are short sighted indeed. The sheer mendacity and incompetence of the man should be ringing alarm bells inside your head. If he gets us out it will be on terms so bad that even you will beg to return to the EU.

You would be thinking something like that, you're a remainer.

[Stranger]

I'm not a Boris fan I just think he's the best bet at the moment to take us out of the EU, if three tea bags and a tent post would be successful at getting us out of the EU, in theory I'd vote for them.

And once again we have you being unable, or unwilling, to give any concrete reasons for this religious fervour of yours to get us out of the EU at any and every cost. Boris the Liar is heading us towards a no-deal that will cost jobs and cause real suffering, yet all you can manage for a reason why you think people should suffer, is some vague statement about sovereignty. How has this affected your life so badly that you're prepared to risk people's livelihoods, and possibly lives, to get rid of it?

Why keep posting on the subject and then run away from any rational discussion about it?

[ippy]

And once again we have you being unable, or unwilling, to give any concrete reasons for this religious fervour of yours to get us out of the EU at any and every cost. Boris the Liar is heading us towards a no-deal that will cost jobs and cause real suffering, yet all you can manage for a reason why you think people should suffer, is some vague statement about sovereignty. How has this affected your life so badly that you're prepared to risk people's livelihoods, and possibly lives, to get rid of it?

Why keep posting on the subject and then run away from any rational discussion about it?

I know I'm not a very likely candidate for any kind of literary prize this year or any other but I have said clearly why I'm not arguing with remainers, assuming my English is really is that terrible even so it can't be as bad as you seem to be indicating.

I have no bone with you as an individual but isn't it obvious to you that we'll never agree on this one, it wouldn't matter what defence of leaving the EU I was to put up you'd more than likely want to empty both barrels and try to put whatever's left through the mincer or the liquidiser, therefore with an impasse like that, that has to be resolved, referendum, winner takes all!!

Regards, ippy.

[wigginhall]

Arguing with friends about how to defeat Brexit, it strikes me that the only way is to defeat the Tories and have a Labour govt, which implements a referendum.  I am ignoring Swinson's fantasies about a Lib Dem govt, but I think tactical voting is important, I.e., vote for the 2nd party in a Tory seat.  Is there any other solution?  The idea of a right wing govt, deregulating things, lowering taxes, cutting social services, is horrible.