Brexit - the next steps

[jakswan]

So it’s the fault of remainers that they weren’t effective enough in preventing the hardliners from having their way notwithstanding the 30 + years of disinformation they had to counter, the platform of lies of the Brexit campaign and a press largely asleep at the wheel when they should have been challenging them, the dubious funding of the Brexit campaign pitted against the well-meaning amateurism of the remain campaign, the thousands of pro-Brexit Twitter accounts that mysteriously disappeared immediately after the vote etc?

Largely rhetoric, if enough remain MP's had gone to May and said 'we'll vote for Norway type deal' it would have got through Parliament. I think blame is too strong, they gambled on another referendum, they lost.

Actually I suspect had Starmer running Labour he would have got a Norway type deal across the line.

Probably, which is ironic as it’ll be caused at root by the Conservative & Unionist party.

It will be caused by the people of Scotland voting for an independent Scotland, you can equally claim the root is the SNP feeding on anti-english sentiment.

I think re-joining is a distinct possibility, but not for at least a generation or more and never on as favourable terms as those we’ve just thrown away. The dark stain of Johnson et al will take decades to wash away – if ever.

Think I agree on re-joining, I don't buy the story it is all the fault of the Tories though.

Anyway, the question was actually this: if back in 2016 you’d seen the skip fire of a deal we now have, would you still have voted to leave?

I honestly don't know, I think we need to move on, I'd let you remain lot have your gotcha moment if you like.

[Gordon]

It will be caused by the people of Scotland voting for an independent Scotland, you can equally claim the root is the SNP feeding on anti-english sentiment.

That sounds like an assertion that there is a definite racist element involved in the support for Scottish independence: on what basis have you established this?

There is certainly anti-Tory sentiment, anti-Brexit sentiment and anti-Westminster/UK sentiment, but I've yet to encounter any substantial groundswell of anti-English sentiment here that is driving the SNP agenda: there may be a few individuals of course who harbour anti-English sentiment, just as there may be some in England who harbour anti-Scottish sentiment, but where in the mainstream media and pro-independence organisations are there overt expressions of anti-Englishness?

 

[Nearly Sane]

Irish govt going to pay for Erasmus for NI students.


https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1186524/?__twitter_impression=true

[jakswan]

That sounds like an assertion that there is a definite racist element involved in the support for Scottish independence: on what basis have you established this?

English isn't a race, so it would be nationalistic, or anglophobia.   

There is certainly anti-Tory sentiment, anti-Brexit sentiment and anti-Westminster/UK sentiment, but I've yet to encounter any substantial groundswell of anti-English sentiment here

Oh stop, next you will be telling me that Rangers and Celtic fans adore each other.

that is driving the SNP agenda: there may be a few individuals of course who harbour anti-English sentiment, just as there may be some in England who harbour anti-Scottish sentiment, but where in the mainstream media and pro-independence organisations are there overt expressions of anti-Englishness?

For now anecdotal, there is Anglophobia in Wales I've witnessed it, I've also witnessed it a lot in Scottish people.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17856075.mark-smith-yes-first-minister-anti-englishness-problem-snp-anti-scottishness/

Have you now accepted that Brexit and IndyRef2 are similar ideologies?

[Aruntraveller]

For now anecdotal, there is Anglophobia in Wales I've witnessed it, I've also witnessed it a lot in Scottish people.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17856075.mark-smith-yes-first-minister-anti-englishness-problem-snp-anti-scottishness/

Have you now accepted that Brexit and IndyRef2 are similar ideologies?

An interesting point and article. One of my main reasons for voting to remain was that I opposed the nationalistic fervour that came from some within the Leave campaign.

As you are pointing to the similarities between Brexit and Indyref2 do you accept that it was the racists wot won it for Brexit?

As the article you quoted pointed out:

nationalism itself attracts, and encourages, people who hate or distrust other nationalities and that, in the case of Scottish nationalism, this means it attracts and encourages people who hate or distrust the English.

I think it is equally fair to say (as I have before) that although not every Leave voter is racist, every racist will have voted leave.

[jakswan]

An interesting point and article. One of my main reasons for voting to remain was that I opposed the nationalistic fervour that came from some within the Leave campaign.

As you are pointing to the similarities between Brexit and Indyref2 do you accept that it was the racists wot won it for Brexit?

As the article you quoted pointed out:
I think it is equally fair to say (as I have before) that although not every Leave voter is racist, every racist will have voted leave.

Oh I don't know there is quite a group of rabid anti-Semitics in your leftish flavour of politics that probably voted to remain, or those not 'proper racists'?

[Aruntraveller]

Oh I don't know there is quite a group of rabid anti-Semitics in your leftish flavour of politics that probably voted to remain, or those not 'proper racists'?

Really? That's the best you've got?

The last figures I saw put the number at between 0.1 and 0.3% of the membership.

Not excusing it just trying to give a little perspective against your vague "quite a group" claim.

[jakswan]

Really? That's the best you've got?

The last figures I saw put the number at between 0.1 and 0.3% of the membership.

Not excusing it just trying to give a little perspective against your vague "quite a group" claim.

'Quite a group' is not specific, but was sufficient to refute your earlier claim:-

I think it is equally fair to say (as I have before) that although not every Leave voter is racist, every racist will have voted leave.

Hopefully you get the perspective now.

[Aruntraveller]

Whataboutery is not a convincing argument.

Anyway shouldn't you be out and about making Brexit a success instead of wasting your time with diehard remainers?

[jeremyp]

I wanted politicians to be accountable to the electorate, a Norway type deal would have been my favoured option

But the Norway type deal is exactly the same as being in the EU but without the EU being in any way accountable to Britain. We would have had to obey all their rules but without any right to shape them, vote against them or veto them.

Had remainers not have played into hard line Brexiters hands, we could have got that deal

No we couldn't because it would have been unacceptable to the Brexiteers for the reasons I have just outlined.

[ippy]

Everybody knows what being in the EU is like and you have yet to name a single disadvantage.

The referendum and the election were won with lies, ippy. Unless you think we're actually going to get £350m a week extra for the NHS, you are effectively agreeing. In reality, the UK will be financially worse off for leaving, which is the exact opposite to what was promised by the leave campaign.

Which makes you intellectually, and with regard to the evidence you offer, equal with Nicolas Marks.

Again N T S, all in your opinion and it's your opinion that's not likely to change and it's just the same for leavers, therefore referendum.

What would be the point of discussing something, anything we're never, as a point of principle, going to agree about and admittedly just like you we're thinking the the visa versa of each others ideas, there's nothing difficult about it. Seriously can you really see that changing, well I can't certainly not in the short term.

ippy.
 

[Stranger]

Again N T S, all in your opinion and it's your opinion...

What exactly do you think is my opinion? Are you trying to claim that the leave campaign didn't promise £350m a week for the NHS or that they are now actually going to deliver it?

This is a cold, hard fact; the leave campaign lied. Are you seriously going to claim otherwise?

[ippy]

What exactly do you think is my opinion? Are you trying to claim that the leave campaign didn't promise £350m a week for the NHS or that they are now actually going to deliver it?

This is a cold, hard fact; the leave campaign lied. Are you seriously going to claim otherwise?

I'm only referring to the opinions you've expressed in your posts, I can see where you're coming from but obviously don't go along with your line of thought as I've said in my previous posts.

ippy.

[jakswan]

Whataboutery is not a convincing argument.

No idea what you are waffling about, you claimed

'all the racists voted for Brexit'

I refuted you with; the hard left have some racists (anti-Semites) and many of them didn't vote for Brexit.

Anyway shouldn't you be out and about making Brexit a success instead of wasting your time with diehard remainers?

Is that your attempt at debate?

[Aruntraveller]

Is that your attempt at debate?

I was coming down to your level.

Anyway off you go. Boris needs lots of little helpers.

[jakswan]

But the Norway type deal is exactly the same as being in the EU but without the EU being in any way accountable to Britain. We would have had to obey all their rules but without any right to shape them, vote against them or veto them.

Not doing the Brexit debate again.

No we couldn't because it would have been unacceptable to the Brexiteers for the reasons I have just outlined.

During May's time the Brexiteers were a minority in Parliament. Actually maybe I do them a disservice, in which case Corbyn, who many thought was a Brexiteer, played them like a fiddle.  

[jakswan]

I was coming down to your level.

Anyway off you go. Boris needs lots of little helpers.

You made a statement which I refuted, you lost the debate.

The level you are playing at now, not interested.

[Aruntraveller]

You made a statement which I refuted, you lost the debate.

The level you are playing at now, not interested.

You never are. Off you go. Lots of money to make up.

[Nearly Sane]

I can understand that Labour see the only choice as to be to vote for the deal but I think a better long term strategy would be abstention - the idea that they are voting to get rid of being in Erasmus seems shocking to me. That Johnson is on record that we would stay in Erasmus and we have not underlines thag he is a lying incompetent.

The SNP have it easy in voting against as despite the desperate fappings of both Tory and Labour it's easier to portray it as voting against leaving rather than no deal.


I have to hope that the deal works but it's already pushing the break up of the UK. The special deal for NI which effectively creates a border in the Irish sea, something that was a red line but gone, and the pragmatic decision of the Irish govt - a large coalition currently - the drip drip of where Dublin will be seen as having the better interests of Belfast than London will is eroding any link.

Add to that Gibraltar moving into Schengen and ot's going to be hard not for the relationship between UK and Gib to rot.


And both of those special arrangements then make Scotland looks as if it is being 'punished',. A canny EU policy will help the SNP - Erasmus looks like again an easy approach.

[jeremyp]

Not doing the Brexit debate again.

It's funny how reticent the Brexit supporters have become since the referendum. We can't get any of them to tell us what the supposed benefits are.

During May's time the Brexiteers were a minority in Parliament. Actually maybe I do them a disservice, in which case Corbyn, who many thought was a Brexiteer, played them like a fiddle.

During May's time the Norway deal was never on the table.

As somebody who wanted the Norway deal, do you think what we actually have is better than staying in the EU or worse?

[jeremyp]

I can understand that Labour see the only choice as to be to vote for the deal but I think a better long term strategy would be abstention - the idea that they are voting to get rid of being in Erasmus seems shocking to me. That Johnson is on record that we would stay in Erasmus and we have not underlines thag he is a lying incompetent.

Staying in Erasmus is not now an option in the short term. If the deal doesn't go, we are even more fucked. Any party that votes against the deal is voting to sabotage the UK and appy a kick in the teeth to everybody in it.

The SNP have it easy in voting against as despite the desperate fappings of both Tory and Labour it's easier to portray it as voting against leaving rather than no deal.

Might have guessed they's do that. Have they got any clue about reality?

[Nearly Sane]

Staying in Erasmus is not now an option in the short term. If the deal doesn't go, we are even more fucked. Any party that votes against the deal is voting to sabotage the UK and appy a kick in y
the teeth to everybody in it.
Might have guessed they's do that. Have they got any clue about reality?

No both de iure, that isn't the case - voting against the legislation is not voting for no deal - and de facto isn't the case either since the Tory majority, and Labour voting for it mean that it will pass. Voting for it is symbolically supporting every part of it. An abstention from Labour means in the future they wouldn't be so easily tarred with all of the consequences being covered with 'Well, you voted for it'.

[Nearly Sane]

I have to agree with Jeremy.

Don't get me wrong I can see all the political, social and emotional arguments for independence. I just can't see how you could implement it fairly. The whole thing would be horrendous - from currency, to trade, to assets. I just don't see how it could happen.

And just think for a moment about what has happened in Brexit. The larger of the two parties came off significantly better. I see no difference when it comes to Scotland v. rUK.

You surely aren't expecting a UK Conservative Government to treat you fairly. I am aware of the inherent irony of that statement in that that is one of the driving forces for independence in the first place.

Exactly - it is the argument of an abusive spouse - stay and be abused, because if you leave we will really hurt you.

[Aruntraveller]

Exactly - it is the argument of an abusive spouse - stay and be abused, because if you leave we will really hurt you.

Yes. Well put.

It is not an enviable situation to be in which ever way it goes. Is the EU a safe shelter?

[Stranger]

I'm only referring to the opinions you've expressed in your posts, I can see where you're coming from but obviously don't go along with your line of thought as I've said in my previous posts.

What are you not going along with? There were blatant, barefaced lies from the leave campaign. Are you saying that is just my opinion? The evidence is out there, just look at any picture of the leave campaign bus and ask yourself if you really expect the NHS to get £350m a week extra from Friday.