Brexit - the next steps

[Hope]

NI did not vote to remain, only the UK voted.

Whilst you are correct to an extent, JK, certain areas of the UK voted to remain.  For instance, some 68%(?) Scottish voters voted to remain, as did a similar number in London; a slighly smaller number (~62%) of people in Cardiff, the Vale of Glamorgan and Gwynedd did the same, as did 96% 0f Gibraltarians.  You will appreciate that electors in those areas will expect their MPs to vote in any trigger debate to reflect that voting pattern.

[Sebastian Toe]

My point wasn't about what he did or did not do but that there was no intention of a cooling off period, else he couldn't have said that.

What?
You actually believed a politician?
Come on now. Really?

[Anchorman]

NI did not vote to remain, only the UK voted.

And, yeah, lets given into violence and fear!!!

NI did, in fact, vote to remain, JK.
And I'd respectfully suggest that the wishes of the majority of those in the province must be addressed. Treating them as a region or ignoring the special circumstances which exist there is not only dengerous, but incredibly foolish.

[Nearly Sane]

Ooh er, missus!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-block-article-50-theresa-may-cannot-guarantee-single-market-access-brexit-a7400266.html

[Spud]

You will appreciate that electors in those areas will expect their MPs to vote in any trigger debate to reflect that voting pattern.

I think it's right for MPs to vote on triggering Article 50. But I don't think the government should have to disclose any plans regarding negotiations that will occur once it is triggered. It would be a bit like being at an auction and having to disclose your maximum price to all the other bidders. The other EU member states would know how far they could push the government in the negotiations. There is a need for secrecy.

[Nearly Sane]

Ooh er, missus!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-block-article-50-theresa-may-cannot-guarantee-single-market-access-brexit-a7400266.html

Ah, back to normal

http://tinyurl.com/hlb5w8t

[Hope]

NI did, in fact, vote to remain, JK.
And I'd respectfully suggest that the wishes of the majority of those in the province must be addressed. Treating them as a region or ignoring the special circumstances which exist there is not only dengerous, but incredibly foolish.

Jim, whilst I agree with the possible outcomes you outlined in a previous post, I also agree with JK insofar as the referendum was a UK referendum; it wasn't a Scottish/Welsh/N.Irish/English one (we saw the anger that was associated with the Scottish Indy referendum, when the rest of the UK weren't given a say).  You could, for instance, argue that if more Scots had voted to remain we mightn't find ourselves in our present predicament (or N. Irish, Welsh or English, for that matter), but the constituent parts of the UK aren't independent of each other in the way Ms Sturgeon seems to what Scotland to be.

Remember that there wasn't even a 4 point difference in the result; in fact, there are more people in England who voted to remain than there are in Scotland.  The very fact that - whilst the various websites dealing with the referendum give the headline percentage (51.7% - 48.3% [or whatever]) few if any of them seem to give the percentages for the various constituencies, let alone the 3 devolved nations and England.

[Hope]

Ooh er, missus!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-block-article-50-theresa-may-cannot-guarantee-single-market-access-brexit-a7400266.html

The problem with this story is this sentence

The opposition will join forces with Tory Remain supporters and other parties to prevent Article 50 from being triggered if this trade access is not assured, the Labour leader told the Sunday Mirror.

Article 50 is the point at which these negotiations can formally commence, so having an assurance on the access issue is not something that any Government could deliver ahead of time.

[wigginhall]

I can see why Labour have pulled back on this one, as it can be portrayed as rejecting the referendum.   That could lead to a horrorshow for Labour, if there is a 'Brexit' election.   I would think that this on May's mind now, as she could hope to annihilate Labour, as non-patriotic Remoaners.    On the other hand, Starmer seems to have his head screwed on, he is surely the dauphin now?   He might secretly want an election, in order to clean out Corbyn, and leave a vacancy. 

[jeremyp]

I find it odd that he happily stood throughout the last govt, and then voted to leave  but thought that the single market would stay. Why not stay on and attempt to change the policy than just resign?

Which is incidentally the same argument as for staying in the imperfect EU instead of running away.

[jeremyp]

The courts have no right to tell parliament what to do or how to carryout their procedures.

Who else is supposed to tell them to stop breaking the law?

[Sebastian Toe]

(we saw the anger that was associated with the Scottish Indy referendum, when the rest of the UK weren't given a say).

What kind of say would that be?

[jeremyp]

Or May could just trigger Art.50. What could they (who ever they are) do? She has a mandate from the people.

As of now, if she did that unilaterally, she would be in contempt of court, so they could put her in prison.

[jeremyp]

Ooh er, missus!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-block-article-50-theresa-may-cannot-guarantee-single-market-access-brexit-a7400266.html

Dangerous for him in that, if May calls a general election now, I think Labour would lose miserably. However, I applaud his position.

[jeremyp]

Ah, back to normal

http://tinyurl.com/hlb5w8t

Ah, my opinion of him returns to where it was before.

[jeremyp]

What kind of say would that be?

A say in whether Scotland should be allowed to secede from the UK. Ironically, the referendum might have been closer if the rest of us had been given a say. I know a few English people whose attitude was "let the whining Scots fuck off if they want to". The analogous situation with respect to Brexit would have been to have a Europe wide referendum on it. I suspect the attitude of quite a lot of Europeans would have been "let the whining British fuck off if they want to".

[Hope]

What kind of say would that be?

Well, for one thing, Scottish people living outside Scotland but within the UK; then there were the millions of English, Welsh and Northern Irish who would be affected by any break-up of the Union.  Note, I don't indicate whether that affect would be positive or negative - just that it would have an affect.

[ProfessorDavey]

As of now, if she did that unilaterally, she would be in contempt of court, so they could put her in prison.

Not sure they could put her in prison - rather her attempt to trigger A50 would be completely invalid and would be ignored in law both here and the rest of the EU.

[wigginhall]

Well, for one thing, Scottish people living outside Scotland but within the UK; then there were the millions of English, Welsh and Northern Irish who would be affected by any break-up of the Union.  Note, I don't indicate whether that affect would be positive or negative - just that it would have an affect.

That would go against the idea of civic nationalism, as opposed to ethnic.   The SNP are proud of this, quite rightly, I think, so anyone living in Scotland had a vote.   If Cameron had done this for the referendum, Remain would probably have won, but it would not please the racist press.

[Sebastian Toe]

A say in whether Scotland should be allowed to secede from the UK. Ironically, the referendum might have been closer if the rest of us had been given a say. I know a few English people whose attitude was "let the whining Scots fuck off if they want to".

I was just wondering if the rest of the UK voted to let the whining Scots fuck off but the Scottish result was to stay in the UK?
What then?

[Sebastian Toe]

Well, for one thing, Scottish people living outside Scotland but within the UK; then there were the millions of English, Welsh and Northern Irish who would be affected by any break-up of the Union.  Note, I don't indicate whether that affect would be positive or negative - just that it would have an affect.

see Reply #119

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I can see why Labour have pulled back on this one, as it can be portrayed as rejecting the referendum.   That could lead to a horrorshow for Labour, if there is a 'Brexit' election.   I would think that this on May's mind now, as she could hope to annihilate Labour, as non-patriotic Remoaners.    On the other hand, Starmer seems to have his head screwed on, he is surely the dauphin now?   He might secretly want an election, in order to clean out Corbyn, and leave a vacancy.

Can anybody be annihilated politically for being a remoaner? After all 48% were remainers and now isn't meant to be be 51%.

It's the political cycle reset slightly by a new PM and the tories are at the part of it where they can do anything and not get voted out and labour can't do anything to get voted in.

[ProfessorDavey]

Can anybody be annihilated politically for being a remoaner? After all 48% were remainers and now isn't meant to be be 51%.

It's the political cycle reset slightly by a new PM and the tories are at the part of it where they can do anything and not get voted out and labour can't do anything to get voted in.

I agree - I think there is serious political mileage in setting out your stall to oppose Brexit, and specifically to demand a second referendum on the agreed terms against the status quo.

Sure remain lost, but only by a whisker and there are 16 million remain voters looking for a party to cast their vote for now we are (apparently) all Brexiters, cos Brexit means Brexit.

To use an analogy, I don't see the SNP suffering from siding with the losing 45% on IndyRef and with a clear agenda to overturn that referendum result in the future.

[SusanDoris]

I'm pleased to hear the BBC (Radio 4) choosing to ask Kenneth Clark for his views on what's happening now. The voice of common sense I think.

[Hope]

That would go against the idea of civic nationalism, as opposed to ethnic.   The SNP are proud of this, quite rightly, I think, so anyone living in Scotland had a vote.   If Cameron had done this for the referendum, Remain would probably have won, but it would not please the racist press.

I'm not sure that I'd have necessarily wanted a vote - I'm British English as opposed to British Welsh, but I know a number of Scottish folk who, by dint of being married to Welsh, N. Irish and English partners and living outside Scotland were denied what they believed to be a rightful vote.  Could it have had anything to do with the fact that, had the Governments in Holyrood and Westminster allowed such people to vote, it would have cost more to hold the referendum than it did (costs of checking the validity of people's eligibility to vote)?