Author Topic: Brexit - the next steps  (Read 417059 times)

wigginhall

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #125 on: November 06, 2016, 05:31:41 PM »
I thought it was a definite policy by the SNP to oppose ethnic nationalism.   Civic nationalism meant that Poles and other immigrants could vote, and this tallies with the strong SNP support for immigration.   Ethnic nationalism is also quite close to racism.
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wigginhall

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #126 on: November 06, 2016, 05:42:58 PM »
Rumours that Mrs May's legal advisors are telling her that the Appeal Court's reasoning is not just solid, but rock hard.   We shall see.
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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #127 on: November 06, 2016, 06:12:42 PM »
This was the comment from 'Lawyers for Britain' about the court ruling:

When it comes to using the prerogative for “less Europe”, there are implied imitations which do not seem to exist for “more Europe”.

On 3rd November 2016 the Divisional Court handed down its judgment in R (Miller) V- Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union [2016] EWHC 2768 (Admin). The court has, to the surprise of most informed observers, decided that it is outside the prerogative powers of the Crown for notice to be given under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union to withdraw from the European Union.

In reaching this decision, the judgment has overturned the accepted understanding about the respective power of the Crown on the international plane to accede to and withdraw from international treaties, and the powers of Parliament to alter the internal law of the United Kingdom.

The European Communities Act 1972 was a constitutional innovation for the United Kingdom. It linked international treaties directly to the internal law of the United Kingdom by giving the European Treaties and supranational legislation made under them so called “direct effect.” That means that they have force in UK internal law – and therefore alter the content of the law – without recourse to Parliament.

The judgment argues that this feature of the 1972 Act means that the Crown has no power to withdraw from the EU treaties, because doing so would have the effect of altering domestic law, which only Parliament can do.

This argument is illogical and does not hold water. There are many acts which the government can carry out on the international plane under the European treaties which have the effect of altering UK domestic law, and in doing so either confer rights on people or deprive them of rights.  Whenever the UK representative on the Council of Ministers joins in passing into law a directly applicable EU Regulation then the Crown in using the prerogative power to alter internal UK law without that alteration of the law going through Parliament.  This is simply a consequence of the direct effect machinery of the 1972 Act.

So why should it be OK to have “more Europe” through exercise of the prerogative power, but wrong to have “less Europe” as a result of Article 50 being invoked and the direct effect parts of EU law ceasing to apply within the UK?  Nothing in the wording of the 1972 Act supports such a distinction.

There is a further reason why this decision flies in the face of the obvious intention of Parliament. The Lisbon Treaty, which inserted Article 50 into the Treaty on European Union, was given effect in UK law by the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008. That Act therefore made the Article 50 power available for use by the Crown but did not specify that its exercise would need the approval of Parliament. That Act however explicitly provides for Parliamentary control over certain prerogative acts under the EU treaties, including Article 49 on Treaty revision. But notably, the statutory scheme of Parliamentary control of prerogative power does not extend to notifications under Article 50.

There has a been a long string of attempted challenges to the use of the prerogative power to extend EEC or EU powers, all of which have been rejected by the courts, sometimes in peremptory terms. However, when the prerogative is used to achieve “less Europe” in order to implement the decision of the British people which an Act of Parliament empowered them to take, it is suddenly found that there are implied limitations on the prerogative power which prevent it being used for this purpose.

We welcome the decision of the government to appeal from this judgment. We hope that the Supreme Court will apply the law in a more orthodox and logical way, allowing the government to fulfil its promise to the British people to implement their clear decision.

Martin Howe QC
Thomas Sharpe QC
Clive Thorne
Francis Hoar

http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/referendum-article-50-case.shtml


Interesting, the different takes....
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Hope

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #128 on: November 06, 2016, 06:22:19 PM »
I thought it was a definite policy by the SNP to oppose ethnic nationalism.   Civic nationalism meant that Poles and other immigrants could vote, and this tallies with the strong SNP support for immigration.   Ethnic nationalism is also quite close to racism.
Surely ethnic nationalism refers to the disallowing of rights to those who are not of that ethnicity, whereas civic nationalism is simply a means by which such people are included in the whole - rather than the 'residential nationalism' that seems to have occurred in the IndyRef.  After all, it could be argued that, despite not residing within the borders of the country, Scots living elsewhere in the UK would have a level of civic involvement in Scotland (as would every other British citizen) as a result of the central methods of funding of all the devolved nations.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #129 on: November 06, 2016, 06:48:03 PM »
This was the comment from 'Lawyers for Britain' about the court ruling:

When it comes to using the prerogative for “less Europe”, there are implied imitations which do not seem to exist for “more Europe”.

On 3rd November 2016 the Divisional Court handed down its judgment in R (Miller) V- Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union [2016] EWHC 2768 (Admin). The court has, to the surprise of most informed observers, decided that it is outside the prerogative powers of the Crown for notice to be given under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union to withdraw from the European Union.

In reaching this decision, the judgment has overturned the accepted understanding about the respective power of the Crown on the international plane to accede to and withdraw from international treaties, and the powers of Parliament to alter the internal law of the United Kingdom.

The European Communities Act 1972 was a constitutional innovation for the United Kingdom. It linked international treaties directly to the internal law of the United Kingdom by giving the European Treaties and supranational legislation made under them so called “direct effect.” That means that they have force in UK internal law – and therefore alter the content of the law – without recourse to Parliament.

The judgment argues that this feature of the 1972 Act means that the Crown has no power to withdraw from the EU treaties, because doing so would have the effect of altering domestic law, which only Parliament can do.

This argument is illogical and does not hold water. There are many acts which the government can carry out on the international plane under the European treaties which have the effect of altering UK domestic law, and in doing so either confer rights on people or deprive them of rights.  Whenever the UK representative on the Council of Ministers joins in passing into law a directly applicable EU Regulation then the Crown in using the prerogative power to alter internal UK law without that alteration of the law going through Parliament.  This is simply a consequence of the direct effect machinery of the 1972 Act.

So why should it be OK to have “more Europe” through exercise of the prerogative power, but wrong to have “less Europe” as a result of Article 50 being invoked and the direct effect parts of EU law ceasing to apply within the UK?  Nothing in the wording of the 1972 Act supports such a distinction.

There is a further reason why this decision flies in the face of the obvious intention of Parliament. The Lisbon Treaty, which inserted Article 50 into the Treaty on European Union, was given effect in UK law by the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008. That Act therefore made the Article 50 power available for use by the Crown but did not specify that its exercise would need the approval of Parliament. That Act however explicitly provides for Parliamentary control over certain prerogative acts under the EU treaties, including Article 49 on Treaty revision. But notably, the statutory scheme of Parliamentary control of prerogative power does not extend to notifications under Article 50.

There has a been a long string of attempted challenges to the use of the prerogative power to extend EEC or EU powers, all of which have been rejected by the courts, sometimes in peremptory terms. However, when the prerogative is used to achieve “less Europe” in order to implement the decision of the British people which an Act of Parliament empowered them to take, it is suddenly found that there are implied limitations on the prerogative power which prevent it being used for this purpose.

We welcome the decision of the government to appeal from this judgment. We hope that the Supreme Court will apply the law in a more orthodox and logical way, allowing the government to fulfil its promise to the British people to implement their clear decision.

Martin Howe QC
Thomas Sharpe QC
Clive Thorne
Francis Hoar

http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/referendum-article-50-case.shtml


Interesting, the different takes....
Lawyers for Britain?

A respected professional legal organisation - nope.

A campaigning group for Brexit - yup.

Their opinion is irrelevant because firstly the High Court has rule and disagrees with them. And secondly no organisation that has a tag on their web-site stating that the 'Referendum is binding' when any fool knows that the referendum is legally advisory only. That an organisation that purports to be lawyers fails to know that the referendum was advisory and not binding means they should rightly be ignored.

Jack Knave

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #130 on: November 07, 2016, 05:41:55 PM »
Whilst you are correct to an extent, JK, certain areas of the UK voted to remain.  For instance, some 68%(?) Scottish voters voted to remain, as did a similar number in London; a slighly smaller number (~62%) of people in Cardiff, the Vale of Glamorgan and Gwynedd did the same, as did 96% 0f Gibraltarians.  You will appreciate that electors in those areas will expect their MPs to vote in any trigger debate to reflect that voting pattern.
But all that is besides the point. Only the UK voted!

Jack Knave

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #131 on: November 07, 2016, 05:44:52 PM »
What?
You actually believed a politician?
Come on now. Really?
Come on, really, are you that stupid?

If he had said something that was legally incorrect then this would have been pointed out with a vociferousness proportional to his error.

Jack Knave

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #132 on: November 07, 2016, 05:47:25 PM »




NI did, in fact, vote to remain, JK.
And I'd respectfully suggest that the wishes of the majority of those in the province must be addressed. Treating them as a region or ignoring the special circumstances which exist there is not only dengerous, but incredibly foolish.
WRONG!!!

Only the UK voted.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #133 on: November 07, 2016, 05:52:13 PM »
WRONG!!!

Only the UK voted.
Factually only individuals voted.

Jack Knave

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #134 on: November 07, 2016, 05:53:18 PM »
I think it's right for MPs to vote on triggering Article 50. But I don't think the government should have to disclose any plans regarding negotiations that will occur once it is triggered. It would be a bit like being at an auction and having to disclose your maximum price to all the other bidders. The other EU member states would know how far they could push the government in the negotiations. There is a need for secrecy.
I agree. It seems absurd that the government have to first negotiate with a load of whinging gits and sour losers first, who would make them compromise their strong position, so weakening them, and then go and negotiate with the EU and compromise further giving the British people a lousy deal. Better to just allow UKIP do the negotiations and twist the EU into binding knots.

Jack Knave

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #135 on: November 07, 2016, 06:01:23 PM »
Who else is supposed to tell them to stop breaking the law?
No laws have been broken.

Jack Knave

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #136 on: November 07, 2016, 06:05:15 PM »
As of now, if she did that unilaterally, she would be in contempt of court, so they could put her in prison.
The courts don't make the law they only implement it. She would not have broken any laws in doing that.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #137 on: November 07, 2016, 06:09:17 PM »
The courts don't make the law they only implement it. She would not have broken any laws in doing that.
please set out your legal argument hete

Jack Knave

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #138 on: November 07, 2016, 06:10:27 PM »
Not sure they could put her in prison - rather her attempt to trigger A50 would be completely invalid and would be ignored in law both here and the rest of the EU.
That's not what the EU have said.

Jack Knave

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #139 on: November 07, 2016, 06:19:24 PM »
I agree - I think there is serious political mileage in setting out your stall to oppose Brexit, and specifically to demand a second referendum on the agreed terms against the status quo.

Sure remain lost, but only by a whisker and there are 16 million remain voters looking for a party to cast their vote for now we are (apparently) all Brexiters, cos Brexit means Brexit.

To use an analogy, I don't see the SNP suffering from siding with the losing 45% on IndyRef and with a clear agenda to overturn that referendum result in the future.
The status quo has already been voted on and rejected. It would have to be the agreed terms or full Brexit.

Jack Knave

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #140 on: November 07, 2016, 06:31:12 PM »
This was the comment from 'Lawyers for Britain' about the court ruling:

When it comes to using the prerogative for “less Europe”, there are implied imitations which do not seem to exist for “more Europe”.

On 3rd November 2016 the Divisional Court handed down its judgment in R (Miller) V- Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union [2016] EWHC 2768 (Admin). The court has, to the surprise of most informed observers, decided that it is outside the prerogative powers of the Crown for notice to be given under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union to withdraw from the European Union.

In reaching this decision, the judgment has overturned the accepted understanding about the respective power of the Crown on the international plane to accede to and withdraw from international treaties, and the powers of Parliament to alter the internal law of the United Kingdom.

The European Communities Act 1972 was a constitutional innovation for the United Kingdom. It linked international treaties directly to the internal law of the United Kingdom by giving the European Treaties and supranational legislation made under them so called “direct effect.” That means that they have force in UK internal law – and therefore alter the content of the law – without recourse to Parliament.

The judgment argues that this feature of the 1972 Act means that the Crown has no power to withdraw from the EU treaties, because doing so would have the effect of altering domestic law, which only Parliament can do.

This argument is illogical and does not hold water. There are many acts which the government can carry out on the international plane under the European treaties which have the effect of altering UK domestic law, and in doing so either confer rights on people or deprive them of rights.  Whenever the UK representative on the Council of Ministers joins in passing into law a directly applicable EU Regulation then the Crown in using the prerogative power to alter internal UK law without that alteration of the law going through Parliament.  This is simply a consequence of the direct effect machinery of the 1972 Act.

So why should it be OK to have “more Europe” through exercise of the prerogative power, but wrong to have “less Europe” as a result of Article 50 being invoked and the direct effect parts of EU law ceasing to apply within the UK?  Nothing in the wording of the 1972 Act supports such a distinction.

There is a further reason why this decision flies in the face of the obvious intention of Parliament. The Lisbon Treaty, which inserted Article 50 into the Treaty on European Union, was given effect in UK law by the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008. That Act therefore made the Article 50 power available for use by the Crown but did not specify that its exercise would need the approval of Parliament. That Act however explicitly provides for Parliamentary control over certain prerogative acts under the EU treaties, including Article 49 on Treaty revision. But notably, the statutory scheme of Parliamentary control of prerogative power does not extend to notifications under Article 50.

There has a been a long string of attempted challenges to the use of the prerogative power to extend EEC or EU powers, all of which have been rejected by the courts, sometimes in peremptory terms. However, when the prerogative is used to achieve “less Europe” in order to implement the decision of the British people which an Act of Parliament empowered them to take, it is suddenly found that there are implied limitations on the prerogative power which prevent it being used for this purpose.

We welcome the decision of the government to appeal from this judgment. We hope that the Supreme Court will apply the law in a more orthodox and logical way, allowing the government to fulfil its promise to the British people to implement their clear decision.

Martin Howe QC
Thomas Sharpe QC
Clive Thorne
Francis Hoar

http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/referendum-article-50-case.shtml


Interesting, the different takes....
The judges' judgement is bollocks. Art 50 does not withdraw anything it starts a process off just as a 'more EU' does, and which didn't need parliamentary approval.

EU act 1972 has nothing to do with Art 50.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 06:34:56 PM by Jack Knave »

Anchorman

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #141 on: November 07, 2016, 06:36:36 PM »
Personally, JK, I couldn't give a Theresa May chicken impersonation regarding what the Untied Kingdom did or did not vote for (no typo). My concern is for the people of Scotland, and our voice will not be silenced by some Westminster drivel. We are not going to sit up and beg when Westminster tells us to, and it's time that they realised that we are a nation which did not elect their government, disdain their prime minister, and have nothing but derision for their much vaunted tradition.
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Jack Knave

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #142 on: November 07, 2016, 06:37:40 PM »
please set out your legal argument hete
You tell me which law she would have broken if she did that?

Jack Knave

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #143 on: November 07, 2016, 06:44:02 PM »
Personally, JK, I couldn't give a Theresa May chicken impersonation regarding what the Untied Kingdom did or did not vote for (no typo). My concern is for the people of Scotland, and our voice will not be silenced by some Westminster drivel. We are not going to sit up and beg when Westminster tells us to, and it's time that they realised that we are a nation which did not elect their government, disdain their prime minister, and have nothing but derision for their much vaunted tradition.
Stamp your feet and cry out for mummy as much as you like it won't change anything. You lot need to vote but Scotland's finances don't look to good.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #144 on: November 07, 2016, 06:44:09 PM »
You tell me which law she would have broken if she did that?
Shifting the burden of proof, how unusual! Your claim, you justify it.

Jack Knave

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #145 on: November 07, 2016, 06:51:19 PM »
Shifting the burden of proof, how unusual! Your claim, you justify it.
I can't prove a negative, i.e. there is no law except to present to you all the laws in the land. You lot claim she is breaking a law, so which one?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #146 on: November 07, 2016, 06:56:53 PM »
I can't prove a negative, i.e. there is no law except to present to you all the laws in the land. You lot claim she is breaking a law, so which one?
I didn't make that claim. So still unable to shift that burden!

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #147 on: November 08, 2016, 06:23:54 AM »
Personally, JK, I couldn't give a Theresa May chicken impersonation regarding what the Untied Kingdom did or did not vote for (no typo). My concern is for the people of Scotland, and our voice will not be silenced by some Westminster drivel. We are not going to sit up and beg when Westminster tells us to, and it's time that they realised that we are a nation which did not elect their government, disdain their prime minister, and have nothing but derision for their much vaunted tradition.
But Jim, the drivel isn't only from Westminster; in fact much of it emanates from beyond Westminster.  For instance, it emanantes from places like the South Wales Valleys, from Cornwall, and from parts of the North of England.  Some of it even emanates from north of the border.  This was a UK referendum, which has an impact on the whole of the UK.  Like you, I voted to remain, as did a majority in Cardiff, the Vale of Glamorgan and Gwynedd, but my vote was outweighed by others in my own nation.  I'm afraid that you can't pick and choose which bits of democracy you will accept and which you won't.  You can choose to work to change the hearts and minds of those who voted to leave, Parliament may even have the right to vote down any negotiated exit arrangements on the grounds that it took an Act of Parliament for us to join the EEC, so it needs an Act of Parliament to cede from its successor - but all this claiming to have a concern for the people of Scotland seems a tad hollow to someone who is proud to be English, but also British and European.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #148 on: November 08, 2016, 10:17:16 AM »
Come on, really, are you that stupid?

If he had said something that was legally incorrect then this would have been pointed out with a vociferousness proportional to his error.

Nothing to do with legality - as you said yourself, all to do with intention

My point wasn't about what he did or did not do but that there was no intention of a cooling off period, else he couldn't have said that.

So,
.....you believed a politician?
Are you really that stupid?
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #149 on: November 08, 2016, 10:28:12 AM »
The status quo has already been voted on and rejected. It would have to be the agreed terms or full Brexit.
The status quo has not been rejected against any particular flavour of Brexit, merely against an undeliverable poly-anna-ish view of Brexit as whatever you wish it to be.

Once there is an agreed deal (or ever no deal, i.e. WTO hard Brexit) then that actual and deliverable (rather than fantasy and undeliverable) Brexit should require a democratic mandate against the status quo. How else are you going to be sure that a majority supports the actual Brexit settlement. On a wider issue, why are you suddenly so scared of the democratic process. I thought you Brexiters were all in favour of the people deciding, which they demonstrably haven't on an actual Brexit deal.