Brexit - the next steps

[jakswan]

So are you saying you are an equal partner in the negotiation of your salary?

If so I find that strange as in my experience that is not how it works for most employees.

It depends on the employer / employee, I think Messi has the upper hand in his dealings with Barcelona.

I think each party will act in its own interests, some interests are bigger than others, some overlap, some won't, where that is the case there will need to be compromise.

[Aruntraveller]

I think Messi has the upper hand in his dealings with Barcelona.

Oh yes I forgot that. He is so representative of your average worker in the UK. 

[ProfessorDavey]

I think Messi has the upper hand in his dealings with Barcelona.

Blimey - I trust that isn't used as an analogy for the UK and the EU.

[jakswan]

Oh yes I forgot that. He is so representative of your average worker in the UK. 

Not everyone is working for a company in a role where the company dictates the terms. I'm a middle manager, I know my staff work better if they are better paid and if, the company and I care about them as individuals. If the company I work for said to me they will be freezing my pay for 5 years I'd work for someone else.

[jakswan]

Blimey - I trust that isn't used as an analogy for the UK and the EU.

Correct.

[Aruntraveller]

Correct.

Except you were.

[Jack Knave]

I don't understand why we are allowing this kind of racist abuse on this forum.  People who want to talk like that can go to Stormfront.

You've lost your sense of humour Wiggy. That's the problem with all this PC stuff people become as stifled and joyless as they did in the USSR - too many rules on how to be human; according to our political elites anyway.

[Jack Knave]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38324146

"Brexit trade deal could take 10 years, says UK's ambassador"

People seem to keep forgetting that the "up to 2 years negotiations" following notice of Article 50 are only about the bureaucratic arrangements of disentangling from the EU. Negotiations on trade deals only start after we have left.

So what would that include. I thought we were leaving the EU and so would dump it all.

[Jack Knave]

Its part of the reason for wanting to leave, the UK can only do what is in the interests of the 27 other countries. Never thought it would be "rapid".

Good point. The EU is like a lumbering dinosaur about to collapse.

[jeremyp]

My employer is "bigger" than me but we negotiate my rate of pay.

And yet there are unions.

[jeremyp]

It depends on the employer / employee, I think Messi has the upper hand in his dealings with Barcelona.

How successful do you think he would be if he said he was going to quit playing for Barcelona?

[ProfessorDavey]

How successful do you think he would be if he said he was going to quit playing for Barcelona?

Or more to the point that he was going to quit playing for Barcelona ... to play on his own.

Hmm - and fantastic as Messi is, if he was playing on his own, my local park team of 11 players would beat him.

And to look at the converse - so were were Barcelona a fantastic team pre-Messi - well yes.

Will Barcelona be a fantastic team post-Messi - very likely.

Draw conclusions as you wish.

[jeremyp]

Or more to the point that he was going to quit playing for Barcelona ... to play on his own.

Hmm - and fantastic as Messi is, if he was playing on his own, my local park team of 11 players would beat him.

And to look at the converse - so were were Barcelona a fantastic team pre-Messi - well yes.

Will Barcelona be a fantastic team post-Messi - very likely.

Draw conclusions as you wish.

Exactly. If Messi quits, Barcelona has a squad of twenty seven other players to choose from.

[jakswan]

Or more to the point that he was going to quit playing for Barcelona ... to play on his own.

Hmm - and fantastic as Messi is, if he was playing on his own, my local park team of 11 players would beat him.

And to look at the converse - so were were Barcelona a fantastic team pre-Messi - well yes.

Will Barcelona be a fantastic team post-Messi - very likely.

Draw conclusions as you wish.

So you'd tell Messi in negotiations that he was overrated and 11 of your mates could beat him.

[jeremyp]

So you'd tell Messi in negotiations that he was overrated and 11 of your mates could beat him.

It would depend on what he asked for. If he said "I'm leaving but give me access to the Neucamp on site facilities", it would be a big fuck you no matter how good he was. Even if he were only threatening to leave, there is still a price above which Barcelona would not go, because they do have lots of other really good footballers.

[jeremyp]

Also, if we are really going to claim this is a valid analogy, the UK is not the EU's Lionel Messi, that would be Germany.

[ProfessorDavey]

So you'd tell Messi in negotiations that he was overrated and 11 of your mates could beat him.

If Messi were to claim that by going it alone, in other words just him, that he'd beat a team of 11 players then it would be reasonable to tell him that he was mistaken - this is no reflection on his individual abilities, nor a suggestion that he is over-rated, merely stating the fact that a single player, on their own, isn't going to beat a team of 11 players, however good that individual's abilities.

But as Jeremy pointed out comparing Messi to the UK isn't appropriate as Messi is the best or second best player in the world - the UK is not one of the top 2 economies in the world, by whatever measure you use.

[Jack Knave]

As the Brexit negotiations start to take shape in peoples' minds we are starting to see a power struggle within the institutions of the EU; each having their own perspective and agendas. It could be we will just stand aside and watch them kick the shit out of each other.     

[jakswan]

Also, if we are really going to claim this is a valid analogy, the UK is not the EU's Lionel Messi, that would be Germany.

Jeez, I said that it isn't always the case that the bigger party dictates terms, this isn't always true, e.g. wages of staff, Messi being one extreme example. I never used it as an analogy of the UK/EU but to demonstrate a point I suspected one of you remaniacs were about to make.

[jeremyp]

Jeez, I said that it isn't always the case that the bigger party dictates terms,

Yes, but why would it be the smaller party that dictates terms in this case?

this isn't always true, e.g. wages of staff, Messi being one extreme example. I never used it as an analogy of the UK/EU but to demonstrate a point I suspected one of you remaniacs were about to make.

But if it is not an analogy for the UK/EU situation, what was the point of bringing it up?

I said the EU will dictate the terms and I gave a couple of reasons. Instead of just saying "sometimes it is different", you'd do better by countering my argument.

So tell me: what leverage has the UK got that will allow us to get a favourable deal? And by "favourable deal" I mean one that is better than WTO terms or Norway rules.

[jakswan]

Yes, but why would it be the smaller party that dictates terms in this case?

Each party will attempt to secure a deal that they think is in their interests somewhere a compromise will be reached. When negotiating are you always preoccupied with who is the biggest party? Normally negotiations are points A, B, C you know you will comprise on B but not on A but I would suggest you wait to see what the other party offers first then talk through it.

But if it is not an analogy for the UK/EU situation, what was the point of bringing it up?

Explained that to you earlier.

I said the EU will dictate the terms and I gave a couple of reasons. Instead of just saying "sometimes it is different", you'd do better by countering my argument.

I don't think I responded to your posts, is it anything more than opinion?

So tell me: what leverage has the UK got that will allow us to get a favourable deal? And by "favourable deal" I mean one that is better than WTO terms or Norway rules.

You mean one like Canada's? We are a bigger customer of the EU than Canada.

[Nearly Sane]

Brexit for Scotland, Brexit for Scotland.


At least someone has a plan though I have doubts about it coming together


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38366278

[Nearly Sane]

Mark Steele on Farage, and the cuntrarian Delingpole


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nigel-farage-brendan-cox-hope-not-hate-thank-god-he-took-a-stand-a7490876.html

[jeremyp]

Mark Steele on Farage, and the cuntrarian Delingpole


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nigel-farage-brendan-cox-hope-not-hate-thank-god-he-took-a-stand-a7490876.html

I disagree with Mark Steele on the general point. I don't see why we need to accord respect to people's public comments if the comments are stupid just because the person has been bereaved recently.

On the particular instance, I think Brendan Cox is right, Farage is obviously wrong and Delingpole just threw an insult but I don't think they needed to concede the point just because Cox's wife was murdered.

[Nearly Sane]

Tweet from Kez and Scottish Labour. Surely that 'do not have to: is 'do not get to' -
SLAB - beyond parody, beyond satire, beyond hope!



.@kezdugdale: "With Scottish Labour, you do not have to make a decision between a hard Tory Brexit and independence."