Author Topic: Brexit - the next steps  (Read 418299 times)

Aruntraveller

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #450 on: January 24, 2017, 09:44:27 AM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-38723261

Breaking news - parliament gets to vote on Article 50.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Rhiannon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #451 on: January 24, 2017, 11:28:19 AM »
Yep. Exactly what Brexiters wanted - the sovereign rule of the land is being upheld.

Anchorman

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #452 on: January 24, 2017, 07:35:50 PM »
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Gordon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #453 on: January 24, 2017, 08:20:48 PM »

Rhiannon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #454 on: January 24, 2017, 09:27:04 PM »
Going off topic slightly, but has anyone produced a post-independence budget based on oil prices at 60 dollars/barrel?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #455 on: January 24, 2017, 09:31:41 PM »
Going off topic slightly, but has anyone produced a post-independence budget based on oil prices at 60 dollars/barrel?
anyone produced a post non independence case, or a basic Brexit case, or non Brexit case on oil barrel price? How about a pound/euro? Groat/pound? Is Palestine better as a state because of the economic predictions?

Rhiannon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #456 on: January 24, 2017, 09:35:18 PM »
anyone produced a post non independence case, or a basic Brexit case, or non Brexit case on oil barrel price? How about a pound/euro? Groat/pound? Is Palestine better as a state because of the economic predictions?

Ohh, so England are Scotland's Israel. Ok, interesting perspective.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #457 on: January 24, 2017, 09:36:06 PM »
Ohh, so England are Scotland's Israel. Ok, interesting perspective.
no, don't stretch analogies to avoid questions.

Rhiannon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #458 on: January 24, 2017, 09:50:16 PM »
no, don't stretch analogies to avoid questions.

You brought it up. If you don't see why the 'analogy' is offensive then you are so wedded to your ideals that you've lost all perspective.

Salmond sold independence based on a budget focussed mostly on oil being over 100 dollars/barrel. It was and is the only way that there could be any hope of the promises made at the time for a prosperous Scotland.

Post/Brexit figures were based on Michael Gove talking out of his arse and it's entirely likely we will be in the shit. Clearly many were too thick to see that the figures were crap but those that weren't thought principle more important than economic stability, wages, jobs, food on the table.

So with an oil-based economy worth half what it was before, doesn't it matter that nobody seems to have done some sums here? If not that doesn't bother me personally, the SNP aren't running my country.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #459 on: January 24, 2017, 09:56:14 PM »
You brought it up. If you don't see why the 'analogy' is offensive then you are so wedded to your ideals that you've lost all perspective.

Salmond sold independence based on a budget focussed mostly on oil being over 100 dollars/barrel. It was and is the only way that there could be any hope of the promises made at the time for a prosperous Scotland.

Post/Brexit figures were based on Michael Gove talking out of his arse and it's entirely likely we will be in the shit. Clearly many were too thick to see that the figures were crap but those that weren't thought principle more important than economic stability, wages, jobs, food on the table.

So with an oil-based economy worth half what it was before, doesn't it matter that nobody seems to have done some sums here? If not that doesn't bother me personally, the SNP aren't running my country.

What ideals do you think I'm wedded to? Ypuare the one suggesting that economics is the be all about whether a place should be independent. Given yph are 'offended' by that being questioned, even though you obviously actually don't agree with that, hence your offence, get back to me when you want to talk about real issues.

Rhiannon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #460 on: January 24, 2017, 10:04:25 PM »
No, I didn't say I'd taken offence. I said that your analogy was offensive. It's my choice to take offence from it and really it's not worth the effort.

I'm very much afraid I can't afford for economics not to be one of my priorities when voting. I like my kids to eat and possibly have a job one day.

Gordon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #461 on: January 24, 2017, 10:05:36 PM »
Going off topic slightly, but has anyone produced a post-independence budget based on oil prices at 60 dollars/barrel?

We are where we are is a cliche I suppose: but even so the price of oil is presumably a factor affecting the UK economy currently just as it would have done an independent Scotland: it certainly messed up the financial assumptions then but this must be contrasted against the new financial buggeration factor that is Brexit, where those extolling us to stay in the UK didnt anticipate (inc. the Tories who were stupid enough to allow a referendum to resolve their internal party problems). Had the result in 2014 had been different we wouldn't now face being dragged out of the EU against our wishes.

I certainly feel a sense of nausea after today's events - the 2014 'Vow' was a sham, as was the 'if you want to stay in the EU then you need to stay in the UK' message. We've been stitched up by some areas in England and Wales, I look at the likes of May and her cohorts and don't want to be part of the good ship Tory Brexit which is surely heading for the rocks.

I have no sense of allegiance to the UK and I want out since I don't feel the UK government give a toss about Scotland - they are more worried about UKIP (a joke here) and they know we won't vote for them in sufficient numbers - I just hope that if there is a next time most of my fellow Scots feel as I do and take into account what rUK are now inflicting on us against our wishes.


Gordon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #462 on: January 24, 2017, 10:14:54 PM »
Meant to add, I think the UK is now broken beyond repair: it is no longer 'United'. While Scotland is the obvious example of this it does seem to me that other parts of rUK aren't all that united either and that the polarisation of opinions on Brexit occurs  in areas outwith Scotland.


Rhiannon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #463 on: January 24, 2017, 10:25:01 PM »
Yes, but you'd have most likely been out of the EU post independence too and would have needed to apply for membership as a new nation state and adopt the Euro - not a feature of the Indyref campaign.

Indyref fractured our country and so has Brexit but we are seeing it stateside too and elsewhere. Unfortunately there is a huge amount of hate and nationalism fuelse it, whether it's the cool Scottish kind or the embarrassing Ukip variety. The betrayal is by every single politician that seeks to rule by division, and we are overrun with them right now.

Anchorman

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #464 on: January 25, 2017, 09:16:43 AM »
The thirst for more authority and powers in the devolved Parliament began, not with Salmond, but with Donald Dewar. Holyrood did gain more power - un-noticed - because Labour was in government in both nations. Whenever there is a difference in administration - regardless of what that administration is - there will be a divergance in legislation and policy - and probably resentment and acrimony, jealousy and envy. As Holyrood gains more power - and over the years they will, devolved or not, that acrimony will only grow. Is that how we want the next ten, twenty or thirty years to be? Continuing carping, resentment, acrimony over a slight, or a grievence, real or otherwise? Because that's what will happen, whether SNP, Labour or whatever party is in power in Scotland. Were we a region, with a regional assembly or council. then there would be fewer issues. We are not, and never have been. We are a nation, with national aspirations, national ambition, and all the baggage tradition and history of a nation. We can either live as friendly nations together in these islands, responsible for our own destinies and mistakes - or thirled together in a loveless marriage eating ourselves up daily.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Rhiannon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #465 on: January 25, 2017, 09:40:42 AM »
I don't think it can be denied that the English nationalism that led to Brexit has been massively fuelled by Scottish nationalism. Ukip used exactly the same kind of language as the SNP in the Indyref campaign. Is there any difference between my English friends being told by Scots to fuck off back home and the disgraceful racism shown to Poles? Had Indyref not happened I think it highly debatable that  Brexit would be a reality. But emotion, division and hate are the order of the day.

jakswan

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #466 on: January 25, 2017, 09:47:05 AM »
The thirst for more authority and powers in the devolved Parliament began, not with Salmond, but with Donald Dewar. Holyrood did gain more power - un-noticed - because Labour was in government in both nations. Whenever there is a difference in administration - regardless of what that administration is - there will be a divergance in legislation and policy - and probably resentment and acrimony, jealousy and envy.

I don't think rUk has any jealousy or envy with regard to Scotland just sick of the whinging SNP. I think they intend to play badly in rUK, old divide and rule trick. I concede they have won their case as far as I'm concerned, happy to see the back of them.

Quote
Were we a region, with a regional assembly or council. then there would be fewer issues. We are not, and never have been. We are a nation, with national aspirations, national ambition, and all the baggage tradition and history of a nation. We can either live as friendly nations together in these islands, responsible for our own destinies and mistakes - or thirled together in a loveless marriage eating ourselves up daily.

You had a vote to be a nation, the people of Scotland bottled it and decided to remain on the teat.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

floo

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #467 on: January 25, 2017, 02:30:23 PM »
Scotland was sensible!

Anchorman

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #468 on: January 25, 2017, 03:50:20 PM »
I don't think it can be denied that the English nationalism that led to Brexit has been massively fuelled by Scottish nationalism. Ukip used exactly the same kind of language as the SNP in the Indyref campaign. Is there any difference between my English friends being told by Scots to fuck off back home and the disgraceful racism shown to Poles? Had Indyref not happened I think it highly debatable that  Brexit would be a reality. But emotion, division and hate are the order of the day.




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SSNP has never been a parochial party.
We have members born and bred in England  -  We have never - nor will we ecer - tell anyone to ---- off. Anyone so doing is immediately suspended from membership, and rightly so.
The present branch secretary of my local SNP is a born and bred Londoner, and proud of it.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Rhiannon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #469 on: January 25, 2017, 05:27:54 PM »
And? If I lived in Scotland I'd be active in the SNP if I thought it the best chance my kids had of getting an affordable university education instead of facing decades of debt.

And Ukip fielded a higher propertionnof BEM candidates at the last election than the Green Party. It still atttacts bigoted racists as its supporters. Nationalism has that effect.

Jack Knave

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #470 on: January 25, 2017, 06:57:32 PM »
Scotland was sensible!
How would you know that?  ;)

JP

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #471 on: January 30, 2017, 08:19:15 AM »
SNP bloke on Radio Four 30 mins ago telling the presenter how easy it was for Scotland to remain in the single market and keep freedom of movement while still a part of the UK without having a border with England. When asked "what about the English" he replied "we don't care about the English"
How can something so perfect be so flawed.

Sriram

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #472 on: February 02, 2017, 04:14:31 PM »


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38836906

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The White Paper's publication comes after pressure from MPs across the House of Commons.

It sets out the themes of the government's goals for its negotiations with the EU, as announced by Prime Minister Theresa May last month.

These include:

Trade: The UK will withdraw from the single market and seek a new customs arrangement and a free trade agreement with the EU.

Immigration: A new system to control EU migration will be introduced, and could be phased in to give businesses time to prepare. The new system will be designed to help fill skills shortages and welcome "genuine" students.

Expats: The government wants to secure an agreement with European countries "at the earliest opportunity" on the rights of EU nationals in the UK and Britons living in Europe.

Sovereignty: Britain will leave the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice but seek to set up separate resolution mechanisms for things like trade disputes.

Aiming for "as seamless and frictionless a border as possible between Northern Ireland and Ireland."

Devolving more powers to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as decision-making is brought back to the UK.

The document says the government will "keep our positions closely held and will need at times to be careful about the commentary we make public", with MPs offered a vote on the final deal.

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Just to take the thread forward...

wigginhall

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #473 on: February 03, 2017, 11:44:16 AM »
It all seems rather vague.  I suppose it has to be.  I'm puzzled how we leave the customs union, and also maintain free movement of goods with the EU - presumably, we duplicate the regulations of the customs union?  Hence, you can still move goods from Manchester to Budapest with little checks at borders?   If there are disputes, which there always are, they have to be taken to an independent court, but not the ECJ, which we will leave.   I predict a big fudge. 

They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Sriram

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #474 on: February 17, 2017, 07:10:13 AM »


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38996179

Tony Blair on a mission to persuade people to rise up against Brexit!  Rather late in the day perhaps ...but nevertheless!