Brexit - the next steps

[Nearly Sane]

Why don't these arguments work for Scotland/UK?

because I don't think that Scotland could maintain a free movement of goods with the rest of the UK without complying with any regulatory changes, which JK thinks could apply in the case of the UK and the EU.

I wasn't arguing that you couldn't maintain the exports but that any deal will be predicated on that. And I don't think that following the regulations would be necessarily problematic. JK seems to think there would be some benefit in making goods not regulated by the EU.

ETA

I think both Scotland, if independent,  and rUK will maintain the regs that the EU develops on goods going forward so there isn't a conflict and that if an independent Scotland were in the EU it would at least have some input. But the overall idea that you could refuse to follow the future regs and still maintain freedom of movement of goods as JK was punting is nonsense. The % illustrate who would be hurt in such a stand off

[jakswan]

because I don't think that Scotland could maintain a free movement of goods with the rest of the UK without complying with any regulatory changes, which JK thinks could apply in the case of the UK and the EU.

I wasn't arguing that you couldn't maintain the exports but that any deal will be predicated on that. And I don't think that following the regulations would be necessarily problematic. JK seems to think there would be some benefit in making goods not regulated by the EU.

ETA

I think both Scotland, if independent,  and rUK will maintain the regs that the EU develops on goods going forward so there isn't a conflict and that if an independent Scotland were in the EU it would at least have some input. But the overall idea that you could refuse to follow the future regs and still maintain freedom of movement of goods as JK was punting is nonsense. The % illustrate who would be hurt in such a stand off

Not sure I follow. If you export goods to a market then the goods have to meet the regs of that market.

So the UK could post-brexit could have different regs.

A free trade deal doesn't necessarily mean regs have to match.

Scotland leaving the EU or UK single market but staying in one will have regs set elsewhere.

[Nearly Sane]

Not sure I follow. If you export goods to a market then the goods have to meet the regs of that market.

So the UK could post-brexit could have different regs.

A free trade deal doesn't necessarily mean regs have to match.

Scotland leaving the EU or UK single market but staying in one will have regs set elsewhere.

Free movement of goods needs following the regulations of the market. Rather than me go and write the whole discussion that has been covered with JK, you might want to have a quick read of it. As covered above the quick summary was JK was arguing that you could have freedom of movement on the basis of the current harmonization and that of would continue even if the zuK didn't follow any new regs. This is patently incorrect as the goods will only have free movement if they follow the regulations. There will not be an agreement that gives an exception to the UK going forward. That's the context of the use of the % figures. It isn't saying that the UK cannot survive and trade with the EU after Brexit, but that if there was a dispute it would affect the UK much more.

[ProfessorDavey]

Free movement of goods needs following the regulations of the market. Rather than me go and write the whole discussion that has been covered with JK, you might want to have a quick read of it. As covered above the quick summary was JK was arguing that you could have freedom of movement on the basis of the current harmonization and that of would continue even if the zuK didn't follow any new regs. This is patently incorrect as the goods will only have free movement if they follow the regulations. There will not be an agreement that gives an exception to the UK going forward. That's the context of the use of the % figures. It isn't saying that the UK cannot survive and trade with the EU after Brexit, but that if there was a dispute it would affect the UK much more.

Absolutely - if UK companies wants to sell into the EU after it leaves they will have to abide by the EU rules.

So this give two alternatives. First simply to embed the EU rules and regulations as the UK ones making it easy for companies as they will only have one set of rules to abide by. Alternatively to set up a separate set of rules and standards in the UK, which aren't the same as the EU in which case companies will have double the amount of red tape - one set for their UK customers and a separate set for their EU customers.

Customers aren't going to be impressed if the UK government imposes a second set of red tape merely to demonstrate it is 'taking control'.

[Jack Knave]

Absolutely - if UK companies wants to sell into the EU after it leaves they will have to abide by the EU rules.

So this give two alternatives. First simply to embed the EU rules and regulations as the UK ones making it easy for companies as they will only have one set of rules to abide by. Alternatively to set up a separate set of rules and standards in the UK, which aren't the same as the EU in which case companies will have double the amount of red tape - one set for their UK customers and a separate set for their EU customers.

Customers aren't going to be impressed if the UK government imposes a second set of red tape merely to demonstrate it is 'taking control'.

But a trade deal is a contract and sets things in stone, and we are aiming at a trade deal with the EU.

[ProfessorDavey]

But a trade deal is a contract and sets things in stone, and we are aiming at a trade deal with the EU.

Sure - and any trade deal with the EU will have, as an absolute requirement, that all goods and services traded into the EU accord with EU regulations (which we will no longer have a say over).

So we have to adopt the EU regulations, and actually cede control to the EU, as unlike now we won't have a say.  We can chose to add a whole additional tier of red tape of 'UK-only regulation' for products and services traded in the UK only, but that would go down like a lead balloon with businesses who would have to comply with different rules for the same product or service traded in the UK or the EU, with associated increase in costs.

Not sure you really understand the reality here.

[Jack Knave]

Sure - and any trade deal with the EU will have, as an absolute requirement, that all goods and services traded into the EU accord with EU regulations (which we will no longer have a say over).

So we have to adopt the EU regulations, and actually cede control to the EU, as unlike now we won't have a say.  We can chose to add a whole additional tier of red tape of 'UK-only regulation' for products and services traded in the UK only, but that would go down like a lead balloon with businesses who would have to comply with different rules for the same product or service traded in the UK or the EU, with associated increase in costs.

Not sure you really understand the reality here.

What part of 'set in stone' didn't you understand. They can't just change things on a whim!!!

[jeremyp]

But you lot are implying we will just roll over and play their game even if it kills us.

None of it would be necessary we weren't leaving the EU

We can insist on things as well and so restrict what they can change.

Of course we can but  we can't tell them not to change their regulations ever. Nor would we want to, partly because it's unreasonable and impractical and partly because we will want to be able to do the same thing.

[jeremyp]

Simples. We say no to them and tell them to fuck off and go on to WTO rules which will hurt them. Basically call their bluff.

It won't hurt them as much as it hurts us.

[Jack Knave]

None of it would be necessary we weren't leaving the EU
Of course we can but  we can't tell them not to change their regulations ever. Nor would we want to, partly because it's unreasonable and impractical and partly because we will want to be able to do the same thing.

I'm going mad having to repeat myself. A contract is a contract, it can't be changed just because of some prats in Brussels have a fit.

[Jack Knave]

It won't hurt them as much as it hurts us.

Yes it will.

[jeremyp]

I'm going mad having to repeat myself. A contract is a contract, it can't be changed just because of some prats in Brussels have a fit.

You wouldn't have to keep repeating things that are wrong if you listened to and understood what other people are saying.

If we do a trade deal with the EU there will be clauses in it that say how changes in regulations will be handled. Good contracts always have mechanisms in them that allow you to change things that you can foresee will need changing.

Concrete example: the EU introduces new safety regulations for cars that make them more expensive to make. Britain's alleged forthcoming trade deal will not stop them from doing this and it will not make it legal for British car manufacturers to sell cars in the EU that do not comply with the new regulations.

[jeremyp]

Yes it will.

No it won't. Each company in the EU will still have nearly 500 million people to sell to and each company in the UK will have 65 million people to sell to.

You live in a fantasy World, Jack. Wake up.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes it will.

No it won'r because it affects just 8% of the foreign trade of EU member states, while it affects about 50% of ours.

[Jack Knave]

You wouldn't have to keep repeating things that are wrong if you listened to and understood what other people are saying.

If we do a trade deal with the EU there will be clauses in it that say how changes in regulations will be handled. Good contracts always have mechanisms in them that allow you to change things that you can foresee will need changing.

Concrete example: the EU introduces new safety regulations for cars that make them more expensive to make. Britain's alleged forthcoming trade deal will not stop them from doing this and it will not make it legal for British car manufacturers to sell cars in the EU that do not comply with the new regulations.

Whether they are in there or not would have to be agreed by us.

[Jack Knave]

No it won't. Each company in the EU will still have nearly 500 million people to sell to and each company in the UK will have 65 million people to sell to.

You live in a fantasy World, Jack. Wake up.

No point having buyers who have no money!!! 

[Aruntraveller]

No point having buyers who have no money!!! 

you think the Germans have no money. Or the French. Or the Italians. Or the Polish. etc.

You really need to get out more.

In fact if you look at the countries in the OECD where incomes have shrunk between 2007 - 2015. Oh let's think who could be on that list. Greece, Portugal & the UK. All other countries have shown a growth in incomes.

When are you going to learn that our problems are largely homegrown and have little or nothing to do with the EU. It's down to the stupid choices we make as a country and that is largely to do with the fact that, for some reason that I cannot comprehend, Ms May and her team are somehow seen by the great British public as competent.

I've seen more competence from a class of 5 year olds.

[Jack Knave]

you think the Germans have no money. Or the French. Or the Italians. Or the Polish. etc.

You really need to get out more.

In fact if you look at the countries in the OECD where incomes have shrunk between 2007 - 2015. Oh let's think who could be on that list. Greece, Portugal & the UK. All other countries have shown a growth in incomes.

When are you going to learn that our problems are largely homegrown and have little or nothing to do with the EU. It's down to the stupid choices we make as a country and that is largely to do with the fact that, for some reason that I cannot comprehend, Ms May and her team are somehow seen by the great British public as competent.

I've seen more competence from a class of 5 year olds.

Germans don't spend but save hence the country's current account value. And the others you mention relatively not so hot. But people mention that the EU is 500 million people but many of those are not likely to be buying high end goods, which is what we sell and the likes of Germany etc. Therefore, it is pretty moribund.

As for incomes and employment, you think France, Spain, Italy and Ireland etc. are doing well? The French NF are preaching to the youths in France, for their votes, because 25% of them are unemployed. No point in wages going up if you haven't got a job!

Your next bit is a nice assertion, perhaps you would like to elaborate on this...? And I don't mean the 5 year olds.

[torridon]

The official EU poll for anyone concerned about losing their EU citizenship rights. Vote here to register your interest in an EU passport post-Brexit :

http://www.choosefreedom.eu/

[torridon]

Guy Verhofstadt demolishes Nigel Farage :

https://youtu.be/0M4hExU-tfg

Enjoy 

[torridon]

Data from Google Trends indicates a surge in interest in 'Stop Brexit' following the anouncement of the general election.  Maybe there is still hope at the end of the tunnel.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%203-m&geo=GB&q=stop%20brexit,support%20brexit

[jeremyp]

Whether they are in there or not would have to be agreed by us.

There's no way that the EU governments would allow EU car safety regulations to be dictated by the British.

[jeremyp]

No point having buyers who have no money!!! 

Who says the 500 million citizens in the EU have no money?

[jeremyp]

Germans don't spend but save hence the country's current account value.

Rubbish.

And the others you mention relatively not so hot. But people mention that the EU is 500 million people but many of those are not likely to be buying high end goods,

Many British people are not likely to be buying high end goods

As for incomes and employment, you think France, Spain, Italy and Ireland etc. are doing well? The French NF are preaching to the youths in France, for their votes, because 25% of them are unemployed. No point in wages going up if you haven't got a job!

France has its own problems not caused by the EU. 

However, if unemployment across the EU was 50% there would still be 250 million people to sell to.

[Jack Knave]

There's no way that the EU governments would allow EU car safety regulations to be dictated by the British.

That still doesn't negate my comment which still stands.