Brexit - the next steps

[Aruntraveller]

Incredible how much naked contempt for democracy Brexit has brought out from under a stone.


[\quote]

Not really the case. We are able to  throw out govts after 4 or 5 years. Govts change policies all the time. So why should this one particular change be for all time? Thats why there is naked comtempt. The vote squeezed through on am electoral whisker on a 70 % turnout...probably less. And it was won based on lies. A chsnge of this magnitude should have had a higher threshold to be sure we could all be convinced it was woryh it. As it is we are as Rhi rihhtly says fucked. We have a disunited govt who couldn t fart thir way out of a colander and they are representing US by negotiating with the EU. Well I know who my money is on. Clue it isnr May or Davis orBoris. As Rhi correctly says we are fucked.

[Shaker]

Not really the case.

Very much the case given the passage quoted in #809.

The people have spoken. Their word must be final.

Well yes ... that's how it's supposed to work. Liking or agreeing with the result has never been part of the deal.

[Aruntraveller]

Very much the case given the passage quoted in #809.

Well yes ... that's how it's supposed to work. Liking or agreeing with the result has never been part of the deal.

SO I'm just supposed to sit back and accept it?

Because that would really have worked for gay rights now wouldn't it.

[Shaker]

SO I'm just supposed to sit back and accept it?

Yes, in a word - just like I have to sit back and accept it every time the Tories are in power. It was a referendum - direct as opposed to representative democracy; that doesn't happen often - and the result is in. Whining about the turnout avails you nothing; a 100% turnout is an impossibility and governments come to power on far less. The decision to join what was then known as the Common Market was also decided by referendum; I assume that this was acceptable? (Back in 1975 Tony Benn said: "When the British people speak everyone, including members of Parliament, should tremble before their decision and that's certainly the spirit with which I accept the result of the referendum").

Because that would really have worked for gay rights now wouldn't it.

Not coincidentally it was gay rights I was thinking of when you wrote: "Govts change policies all the time. So why should this one particular change be for all time?" Homosexuality was decriminalised, the age of consent equalised and marriage equality introduced, but since governments change policies all the time, why should these particular changes be for all time? A very large segment of the Conservative Party plus their partners in slime the DUP would certainly reverse these things if it was in their gift. We could put them to a referendum, and keep repeating the process. Why ever not?

[Aruntraveller]

SO if a government were to introduce draconian anti-gay laws backed by a referendum you think I should shut up and accept it?

I think you know me better than that.

[Shaker]

SO if a government were to introduce draconian anti-gay laws backed by a referendum you think I should shut up and accept it?

I think you know me better than that.

Missing the point entirely.

A government didn't introduce or vote for Brexit; the people did. That was the deal. Whether a referendum was a good idea or a bad idea is another argument altogether; good or bad, it happened. Because you don't like the result, you (and many others, equally worrying) seemingly think it's perfectly acceptable to keep going back to the scab and picking at it until you get the result that suits you - that thing which is exactly what we don't do every time the public votes in a government we happen not to like.

A lot has been made of the apparent rise in racism (at any rate overt racist incidents) after Brexit. While racism is always and everywhere obnoxious I'm not especially surprised by this, predominantly because I don't believe (because there's no evidence for it) that Brexit made a racist out of anyone who wasn't one already. It may well have exposed racism; I see no evidence that it created it. On June 24th last year I don't think anyone woke up thinking: "Aha - now I can tell the Polish cleaner to fuck off" or "I can tell the Romanian van driver that his aunt smells of wee" who didn't already think that way. Objectionable it may be but I'm not surprised by racism - it doesn't shock me.

The contempt for a democratic vote that Brexit has exposed does shock me, though; along with the pouting, dummy-spitting petulance on display, the idea that a rare exercise in direct democracy (the number of which in the last fifty years can be counted on one hand) can be ignored, or rather repeated until a noisy and petulant minority get their way. That sort of thng was supposed to be funny when Harry Enfield did Kevin the Teenager because it was so obviously ridicuous; I don't expect any better from the like of the absurd Damon Albarn on the Glastonbury stage (this is Damon "Democracy has failed us!" Albarn. Well, no it hasn't, you wretched has-been - a single question was put to a public vote and you didn't get your way. That's democracy working just fine, you juvenile prat) but I think we're entitled to expect better of supposedly serious-minded people - political commentators and some senior politicians included.

[torridon]

SO I'm just supposed to sit back and accept it?

No absolutely not, let your voice ring clear.  This is a symptom of a healthy democracy that we tolerate multiplicity of views and people are allowed to campaign for change when they think something is wrong and there is no rule of nature that says referendum results are necessarily right.  It is just a snapshot of public opinion on a particular moment in time and we only need to recall the last election to see how fickle public opinion is.  The referendum result seems to have locked us onto a course which irrespective of the rights and wrongs is going to be hugely expensive for the nation and I don't see that we should be sanctioning such fundamental change on a slim margin vote which could easily go the other way the following week. Fundamental change such be mandated by much clearer margins.

Apart from all which, the whole exercise was really about party management and the outcome has delivered us a shambolic behemoth of a problem that no British politician has the nous or standing to deal with.  It might have been democracy on paper but it was not democracy in spirit, it has set the interests of the young in diametric opposition to the interests of the old, it has set the educated in conflict with the less educated, set the ambitious against the stay-at-homes, set the English against the Scots and threatens to rekindle the troubles in Northern Ireland.  March 2019 will see the largest ever destruction of civil liberties inflicted by a western government on its people as 65 million are summarily robbed of their European rights, freedoms and citizenships overnight.  Responsible governments should be in the business of empowering their peoples, not curtailing them.  The minority of the population who have come to identify as Europeans and take full advantage of those freedoms building international lives, families and businesses need to be respected in the same way as all minorities are respected. We would not introduce a referendum on whether to ban people going to mosques for that reason, a good democracy protects the particular interests of its minorities.  Brexit is not democracy it is an insult against the spirit of democratic pluralist values and I am ashamed that our politicians have led us into this incompetent mess.

[Shaker]

it has set the interests of the young in diametric opposition to the interests of the old, it has set the educated in conflict with the less educated

Do I win a prize for guessing who you consider to be the educated and the less educated?

[Harrowby Hall]

 The decision to join what was then known as the Common Market was also decided by referendum;

If you can't even get this right, why should we bother with anything else you say?

[torridon]

Do I win a prize for guessing who you consider to be the educated and the less educated?

This is not my opinion, it was revealed by statistical analysis of the voting patterns

[Shaker]

If you can't even get this right, why should we bother with anything else you say?

Then I should have said to remain, since the decision to join wasn't put to the public. It usually isn't, possibly because when it is there's a distinct possibility that people may actually have the brazen temerity to say "No" (as did Norway ... twice).

As for 'bothering' - bother, don't bother, it's not as though I fucking care, is it?

[Aruntraveller]

This is not my opinion, it was revealed by statistical analysis of the voting patterns

Also interestingly, revealed by statistical analysis recently Brexit supporters are much less likely to support equality for gay people.

Anyway on the advice of Shaker all future decisions that are made by government, or by the people directly via referendum (oh almost forgot 'advisory referendum') that I disagree with I will  just 'suck it up' as the disagreeable phrase has it.

Or not.

[Nearly Sane]

It ain"t the economy, stupid!



https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/08/01/britain-nation-brexit-extremists/

[Nearly Sane]

Apparently the Daily Mail thinks these delays are bad!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40791058

[Aruntraveller]

http://newsthump.com/2017/08/02/schengen-officials-happy-to-provide-brits-with-exactly-the-kind-of-border-controls-they-asked-for/

[Rhiannon]

Not sure this is what my friend in Grimsby expected when he voted Leave.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/03/eu-fishing-boats-can-still-operate-in-uk-waters-after-brexit-says-gove

[jeremyp]

I haven't seen this on the thread yet. Apologies if it has already gone up.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/10/experts-strike-back-how-economists-proved-right-on-brexit?CMP=fb_gu

The economy is tanking just like the experts we had enough of said it would.

[jeremyp]

The only sane course in the current situation is to stop the Brexit process now while we have an open national debate about what we want from it or if, indeed, we do still want it.

That is what democracy is about, not a single yes/no vote that is set in stone for all time - or at least 40 years.

[Nearly Sane]

The only sane course in the current situation is to stop the Brexit process now while we have an open national debate about what we want from it or if, indeed, we do still want it.

That is what democracy is about, not a single yes/no vote that is set in stone for all time - or at least 40 years.

Surely though since stopping the process is an action that many do not want,  that could certainly be seen as anti democratic?

[Nearly Sane]

Alex Massie on where we are now.

https://capx.co/british-politics-has-become-a-beckett-play-without-the-humour/

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Here is an article about jobs after Brexit. Too many jobs not enough workers! Not a bad situation if people are willing to re-skill.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/08/news/economy/brexit-hiring-staff-shortage-workers/index.html

**********

Employers have plenty of jobs to fill but potential hires are in short supply, according to a new report by the Recruitment and Employment Confederation (REC).

The number of open permanent jobs grew at the fastest rate in 27 months in July. Meanwhile, the availability of both permanent and temporary workers fell sharply.

It's a trend that could accelerate ahead of Britain's departure from the European Union.

"The parts of the economy most reliant on European workers are under even more pressure as many EU workers return home," said REC chief executive Kevin Green. "Employers are not just struggling to hire the brightest and the best but also people to fill roles such as chefs, drivers and warehouse workers."

Green said that London was being hit particularly hard. Hiring is still on the upswing in the capital city, but growth is slower than in any other region.

"We can't ignore the importance of our relationship with the EU to employers," said Green. "If we want to keep our jobs market successful and vibrant, we must make it easier, not harder, for employers to access the people they need."

EU citizens living in the U.K. are stuck in a legal limbo, because the British government and the EU have not yet reached an agreement on their post-Brexit rights.

Many are not waiting for negotiations to conclude. The number of EU citizens leaving the U.K. jumped 36% in 2016, according to official government data.

**********

One of the ideas of Brexit was to make more jobs available to the local Brits. Its working.

Any views?

Cheers.

Sriram

[jeremyp]

Surely though since stopping the process is an action that many do not want,  that could certainly be seen as anti democratic?

Not if there is a promise that once we've sorted out the basics of what we really want we carry on (or not, depending on the outcome). Think of it as more of a pause. Whether you voted for or against Brexit, you have to agree that things a re a complete shambles right now.

[jeremyp]

Hi everyone,

Here is an article about jobs after Brexit. Too many jobs not enough workers! Not a bad situation if people are willing to re-skill.

It is a bad situation because the jobs will go to the EU citizens that had them in the first place. They'll just  be based elsewhere.

[Nearly Sane]

Is this Brexit means Hokey-Cokey?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40922177

[SusanDoris]

With the news yesterday and today about the Irish border, I do wonder how many people who voted Brexit actually considered carefully this point.