Brexit - the next steps

[Nearly Sane]

Good piece on the non customs customs union

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/08/15/the-government-s-customs-union-plan-is-an-absolute-dog-s-bre

[floo]

With the news yesterday and today about the Irish border, I do wonder how many people who voted Brexit actually considered carefully this point.

I don't think quite a number did understand for what they were voting.

I have spoken to a few people who voted to leave the EU, who didn't understand what they were actually voting for, and now regret it. One person said they voted that way because their neighbour was doing so!

[Aruntraveller]

With the news yesterday and today about the Irish border, I do wonder how many people who voted Brexit actually considered carefully this point.

It doesn't matter Susan. We've taken back control. That's what matters. Don't bother your head about practical matters that affect trade and prosperity.

We've got control. And it's in the hands of the three blind mice. Boris, Fox and Davis.

All will be well. Trust them, Fox is a Doctor after all.

[SusanDoris]

It doesn't matter Susan. We've taken back control. That's what matters. Don't bother your head about practical matters that affect trade and prosperity.

We've got control. And it's in the hands of the three blind mice. Boris, Fox and Davis.

All will be well. Trust them, Fox is a Doctor after all.

I'd like to see  some brexiteers made to stand up and produce a solution to the Irish border problem, but I don't suppose it  would make them agree that they had made a big mistake. Next time I see or write to my MP - a brexiteer - I shall raise the question and see if he can come up with any kind of half-way decent answer. I doubt it.

[Nearly Sane]

Read something from Owen Jones yesterday talking about the abuse he has received for taking the position that we need to follow the referendum and try land get the best deal, despite having voted to stay. As a journalist he has been the subject of abuse many times but he feels thus has been the worst he has ever received. In part I suspect because it's more from people he feels sympathy with in general.


There is an element in these attacks which dies illustrate that there is often no moral high ground to be taken in terns of behaviour. In one sense the idea that Trump touts about violence on 'many' sides is true. That, however, is only problematic if you subscribe to a black and white world. Sometimrsx the best place to be is the least low moral ground.

[Nearly Sane]

Irish border solution

http://newsthump.com/2017/08/16/uk-brexit-paper-proposes-magic-irish-border-staffed-by-fairies/

[floo]

Irish border solution

http://newsthump.com/2017/08/16/uk-brexit-paper-proposes-magic-irish-border-staffed-by-fairies/

Surely leprechauns are more appropriate for that task than fairies?

[Nearly Sane]

Surely leprechauns are more appropriate for that task than fairies?

The inability to ensure that the terminus points of multicoloured  illusions celebrating Graham Norton are near the border preclude the use of leprechauns.

[Rhiannon]

He's entrusting it to the aos sidhe. Let's face it, it's probably a good as strategy as any other open to him.

[Rhiannon]

Our supermarkets post Brexit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/f24ca2c2-a444-4b1f-8bf4-fe20fea22549

[Sassy]

We need to Brexit completely. Talk about riddling and moving goal posts.
Exit should mean complete removal from the union.

[torridon]

We need to Brexit completely. Talk about riddling and moving goal posts.
Exit should mean complete removal from the union.

That ignores the wishes of the half of the population that wants to remain in the EU. A compromise needs to be found.

[Shaker]

That ignores the wishes of the half of the population that wants to remain in the EU.

Except it wasn't half. One side gained a majority, so - at risk of stating the bleeding obvious - the minority lost.

Not so as you'd know or anything.

That being the case, and since Remainers can't form their own enclave in Britain but still in the EU, then I don't see what kind of compromise you have in mind.

[Rhiannon]

People are now realising they were lied to. There is no magic porridge pot for the NHS. There will be a divorce bill. There will be freedom of movement - if anyone is mental enough to want to come here - and a cost to the environment. Fisheries will still be opened up to Eurpean competitors. We still will be subject to the European courts.

I don't see how the vote for Brexit is any more genuinely democratic than the votes in the US that were cast for Trump on the basis of what fake news appeared on their FB feed.

[Shaker]

I don't see how the vote for Brexit is any more genuinely democratic than the votes in the US that were cast for Trump on the basis of what fake news appeared on their FB feed.

Because the electoral college system - like FPTP here - allows for a minority to take power; by contrast a referendum - a rare exercise in direct democracy - relies on a simple majority, which like it or not was achieved in the case of Leave. It's the classic zero sum game; A's gains always necessarily come at the expense of B's losses. Trump took power with a minority share of the vote; in any reasonable - i.e. genuinely democratic - voting system we would now have a second President Clinton. That can't be compared to the simple majority needed in a referendum.

If you voted Remain you don't have to like the outcome of the referendum - nobody likes losing - but, like Owen Jones said in a good article recently, the mature thing would be to take it on the Jimmy Hill and accept it. Americans on the other hand have far greater reason to be aggrieved.

[Rhiannon]

I don't give a flying fuck about losing. I do detest the British people being taken for a bunch of idiotic wankers. I do object to the future security of my kids being fucked over by people who believed in Boris Johnson. And I do object to this country facing everything from food shortages to environmental disaster to economic collapse just because some toothsome flag waving Tory pollock manipulated the system to get a referendum in the first place.

It's not losing. It's being fucked over big time.

[Shaker]

some toothsome flag waving Tory pollock

Sounds fishy 

[Rhiannon]

Sounds fishy 

😄 autocorrect isn't good at English swearing.

[Harrowby Hall]

It's worse than that, Rhi.

The legal status of the referendum, as established in the appropriate legislation was advisory. For such a major constitutional change, no truly democratic nation would enforce a decision made by only 37% of the electorate - at least 50% (possibly more) would be required.

For a change in the Constitution of the USA requires a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress.

Theresa May is clearly well out of her depth. Her determination to leave the EU is driven by her desire to control her party, she has put the interests of the nation in second place. The progress her "negotiation" team is making is abysmal. If she is lucky, she will be represented in the future history of whatever remains of the United Kingdom as one who transformed her country from First World to Third World. I thought that Cameron was the worst prime minister since Eden (either meaning is appropriate). May is even more catastrophic.

We still have the party conference season to weather. It will depend on whether delegates are responsible or gutless as to what happens - in all parties. I suspect the best to hope for is another general election before the end of the year.

[SusanDoris]

HH #868

Agreed. Like Rhiannon who worries about the future for her children, I worry for my granddaughters and their partners and future families.

[Shaker]

It's worse than that, Rhi.

The legal status of the referendum, as established in the appropriate legislation was advisory. For such a major constitutional change, no truly democratic nation would enforce a decision made by only 37% of the electorate - at least 50% (possibly more) would be required.

The trouble is that this fantasy Jackanory scenario relies upon a 100% turnout of the electorate (everybody who can vote does actually vote), something never in reality seen and only ever entertained in the fevered masturbatory dreams of totalitarian dictators.

Votes are counted on the basis of who has actually turned out to vote, not who might have done, could have done if people were smart like me and not knuckle-dragging Sun-reading thicky thicko oiks like those over there who have a sofa in the front garden and an impressive display of unimpressive body art, who don't have all the facts not like as what I do.

Sorry to mop up your wet dream, but that's how the shit goes down when you're awake, up and about.

P.S. No truly democratic nation would entertain our current FPTP system. Yet here we are, rubbing our groins and slobbering a bit over how democratic we are with our representative "democracy."

P.P.S. "Possibly more" than 50%? "Possibly more"? WTF are you lot smoking?

[Harrowby Hall]

... if people were smart like me and not knuckle-dragging Sun-reading thicky thicko oiks...

Your expressive skills seem to belie your perception of yourself!

P.P.S. "Possibly more" than 50%? "Possibly more"? WTF are you lot smoking?

Now, why don't you just do a little research, look up the word Supermajority and then come back, enriched with enlightenment, and apologise for your unnecessary and infantile language?

[Shaker]

Your expressive skills seem to belie your perception of yourself

Rough guess - you are American?

[Sebastian Toe]

Votes are counted on the basis of who has actually turned out to vote, not who might have done, could have done if people were smart like me and not knuckle-dragging Sun-reading thicky thicko oiks like those over there who have a sofa in the front garden and an impressive display of unimpressive body art, who don't have all the facts not like as what I do.

Sorry to mop up your wet dream, but that's how the shit goes down when you're awake, up and about.

Tell that to those who dreamt up the 1979 Scottish devolution 
Referendum "rules".

[jeremyp]

Because the electoral college system - like FPTP here - allows for a minority to take power; by contrast a referendum - a rare exercise in direct democracy - relies on a simple majority, which like it or not was achieved in the case of Leave.

A narrow majority. A majority that could easily have disappeared by now.

If you voted Remain you don't have to like the outcome of the referendum - nobody likes losing - but, like Owen Jones said in a good article recently, the mature thing would be to take it on the Jimmy Hill and accept it. Americans on the other hand have far greater reason to be aggrieved.

Do you honestly think the leavers would have given up if the difference had been 2% the other way?

In my opinion, the wrong decision was made in the referendum and I don't see why I have to pretend I'm OK with it. We need to find a way to reverse the decision if we are going to avert disaster.