Brexit - the next steps

[Stranger]

We are. We are trying to stop it from happening. That's the most constructive outcome.

Indeed but it's heartening to realize that even if the utter disaster of Brexit goes ahead, it's likely to be reversed eventually. Not only are the consequences likely to be dire but the younger generations voted overwhelmingly to remain. So when the old fools who instigated this tragedy die off, there'll be the chance to put things right. Hopefully a fully integrated United States of Europe is the future...

[jakswan]

Except that isn't what you have been stating here. Rather you were suggesting that it was ok to misrepresent Trentvoyager because you think I have misrepresented people
 In that sense you are right, it isn't even as wrong as a tu quoque. It's just nonsense.

Nope you might not have understood what I meant, I may have not explained it well, accept that. Again, I'm not arguing that your opinion is wrong just stating I don't care about your opinion, you think it is nonsense, fine, I don't care.

[Nearly Sane]

Nope you might not have understood what I meant, I may have not explained it well, accept that. Again, I'm not arguing that your opinion is wrong just stating I don't care about your opinion, you think it is nonsense, fine, I don't care.

And I said nothinf about my opinion here other than I think you misrepresented Trentvoyager. So do you accept you did?

[jakswan]

the younger generations voted overwhelmingly to remain.

Factually incorrect, the young generations either voted to leave or abstained. If you would revise to prefix with 'of those that voted'.

So when the old fools.....

Sometimes I think the art of persuasion is dead.

[jakswan]

And I said nothinf about my opinion here other than I think you misrepresented Trentvoyager. So do you accept you did?

I have engaged with Trent's posts directly.

[Nearly Sane]

Factually incorrect, the young generations either voted to leave or abstained. If you would revise to prefix with 'of those that voted'.

Sometimes I think the art of persuasion is dead.

Baffled by your first sentence.

[Nearly Sane]

I have engaged with Trent's posts directly.

By misrepresenting him

[jeremyp]

Indeed but it's heartening to realize that even if the utter disaster of Brexit goes ahead, it's likely to be reversed eventually. Not only are the consequences likely to be dire but the younger generations voted overwhelmingly to remain. So when the old fools who instigated this tragedy die off, there'll be the chance to put things right. Hopefully a fully integrated United States of Europe is the future...

I'm sure you are right, which makes this whole Brexit thing a pointless painful interlude.

[jeremyp]

Baffled by your first sentence.

He's counting the young people who didn't vote as being on his side of the fence.

[ProfessorDavey]

Factually incorrect, the young generations either voted to leave or abstained. If you would revise to prefix with 'of those that voted'.

Completely non-sensical statement - you could just as easily say that young generations either voted to remain or abstained, and in greater numbers than voted to leave or abstained.

The implication that somehow young people were more in favour of leaving is simply non-sense.

[ProfessorDavey]

He's counting the young people who didn't vote as being on his side of the fence.

Why on earth would he conclude that. If anything it is easier to argue that those that choose not to vote are more likely to be content with the status quo, as people who want change tend to be more motivated.

[jeremyp]

Why on earth would he conclude that.

My guess is that he doesn't want it to be true that we eventually go back in to the EU.

[jakswan]

Completely non-sensical statement - you could just as easily say that young generations either voted to remain or abstained, and in greater numbers than voted to leave or abstained.

The implication that somehow young people were more in favour of leaving is simply non-sense.

Yes both my statement and the one I replied to are non-sense, which I why I suggested the person posting prefix it with 'Of those that voted' to be accurate.

Glad we agree and in your head you've scored some points of me in your petty point scoring game, I think NearlySane is the clear winner of that one though.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes both my statement and the one I replied to are non-sense, which I why I suggested the person posting prefix it with 'Of those that voted' to be accurate.

Glad we agree and in your head you've scored some points of me in your petty point scoring game, I think NearlySane is the clear winner of that one though.

I'm not engaging in point scoring.

However we need to clear the muddied waters.

The best estimates suggest that turnout amongst 18-14 year olds was 64% and that 75% of those that voted voted remain. That means that 48% of all 18-24 year olds (whether they voted or not) voted remain - very close to an actual majority. And that those voting remain (48%) far outweighed those who voted leave (16%) and those who didn't vote (36%).

[jeremyp]

New poll out commissioned by the Independent.

Headline is that Remain currently leads Brexit by 51% to 41%. The lead widens slightly if the undecideds had their arms twisted. Most of the swing (this time last year, Brexit was ahead) comes from people who did not vote in the referendum who are now overwhelmingly opposed to Brexit.

I think, it is clear that the majority of the British people now have no stomach for Brexit. Let us stop it now.

[Harrowby Hall]

It seems to me that "Brexit" has acquired an independent life of its own, now.

Mrs May's current behaviour defies logic. Why, if there is a real concern that the mood of the populace has changed, and this can be verified, is she condoning, encouraging, continued waste of money (at a time of general financial stringency - at least in the Treasury) by continuing with discussion, preparation, negotiation, Parliamentary business and all other costly activity concerned with leaving the EU? Would it not be more appropriate to retest the national desire for this action given that its stimulus was sometime ago and the decision may not reflect the popular will and that she has already - effectively - lost a General Election?

Her actions appear to be more concerned with her relationship with the Conservative Party than the national interest. She is not helped by the Opposition - also similarly obsessed with its own structural problems than those of the nation.

I think the case is building for another referendum.

[wigginhall]

But please note that the cabinet is meeting to discuss the Brexit endpoint for the first time.    It's very gratifying that our politicians are taking their time - after all, it's only 18 months since the referendum, and they are trying to understand what it means.

[Gordon]

It's an utter disaster.

It always was of course, given the referendum was allowed for the wrong reason (to sort out a faction of the Tory party), and where voters in some parts of the UK were naive enough to believe the lies and xenophobia of suspect characters and support a major change without any assessment of what the outcome would actually be. Then, for good measure, it is placed in the hands of the incompetent to manage and deliver.

You'd think that by now even the likes of our hapless PM would start to realise she is presiding over a shambles - but seemingly not. I suspect that 'Brexit means Brexit' is tattooed on their palms to ensure they stick to their tedious simplistic mantra. Still, looking on the bright side, it might hasten the breakup of the UK unless someone finds a way to stop Brexit.

[Shaker]

It's an utter disaster.

It always was of course, given the referendum was allowed for the wrong reason (to sort out a faction of the Tory party), and where voters in some parts of the UK were naive enough to believe the lies and xenophobia of suspect characters and support a major change without any assessment of what the outcome would actually be. Then, for good measure, it is placed in the hands of the incompetent to manage and deliver.

You'd think that by now even the likes of our hapless PM would start to realise she is presiding over a shambles - but seemingly not. I suspect that 'Brexit means Brexit' is tattooed on their palms to ensure they stick to their tedious simplistic mantra. Still, looking on the bright side, it might hasten the breakup of the UK unless someone finds a way to stop Brexit.

They won't.

If anybody does, I want to expect, and would actively encourage, violence in every street in the realm.

[jakswan]

Still, looking on the bright side, it might hasten the breakup of the UK unless someone finds a way to stop Brexit.

Actually the opposite.

[ProfessorDavey]

If anybody does, I want to expect, and would actively encourage, violence in every street in the realm.

Is this a joke or are you actually advocating violence Shaker - and if so under what circumstances - I'm confused.

[Harrowby Hall]

In view of the reports of extremely nasty messages to MPs with differing views from those of some of the electorate, I think that Shaker's comment is extremely ill-advised and should be removed.

It is out of keeping with the normal qualified tolerance we expect on this forum. It is also tasteless.

[ProfessorDavey]

In view of the reports of extremely nasty messages to MPs with differing views from those of some of the electorate, I think that Shaker's comment is extremely ill-advised and should be removed.

It is out of keeping with the normal qualified tolerance we expect on this forum. It is also tasteless.

I agree - there is absolutely no justification for violence whatsoever. The only time that civil disobedience could ever be countenanced would be if actions of government ended up being unlawful (but this should be dealt with in the courts) or unconstitutional (again by the courts) and if the courts failed to do their job.

I government chooses to deliver Brexit (of whatever flavour) with the express support of Parliament to fulfil the outcome of the advisory referendum then that is both legal and constitutional. Likewise if the government, sanctioned by Parliament choses not to enact the result of the advisory referendum on that basis of their judgement that this is in the best interests of the UK the that is also both legal and constitutional.

In neither case can violence be justified.

[Bramble]

If anybody does, I want to expect, and would actively encourage, violence in every street in the realm.

Nice.

BTW hope you enjoy reading Wright's 'Why Buddhism is true'.

[Shaker]

Nice.

BTW hope you enjoy reading Wright's 'Why Buddhism is true'.

No idea - I haven't got hold of it yet.