Brexit - the next steps

[Harrowby Hall]

Yes, but being a Brexiteer does mean that he will be totally devoid of any understanding of the irony.

Do you agree that all remainers have no common vision for the future of this country?

Isn't continuing to be a member of the European Union a common vision?





Modified for clarity in use of negative expression

[jeremyp]

Do you agree that all remainers have no common vision for the future of this country?

No. Of course not. We all wanted to carry on in  the EU.

With regard to Brexit Remainers are split, some want it overturned, others accept the result but want a vote on the deal, others just think we should get on with it.

Drop the Tribalism.

You are transparently trying to deflect from the point. It's the Brexiteers that wanted us to leave and the Brexiteers that needed to come up with a coherent vision of what leaving should look like. Stop trying to blame the Remainers for the Brexiteers screw up.

[Harrowby Hall]

Jakswan, skip the stupidity - or assumption of stupidity. We all know that you are capable of rational thought (if you try hard).

There are no splits in the remain camp. Every single member wants the same thing - abandonment of Brexit and a return to the acceptance of unbroken, continued membership of the EU. There is no tribalism.

On the other hand, the Brexit minority is split into many camps, none representing rationality. Nostalgia appears to be an important component of the Brexit case - but nostalgia is not what it used to be.

[Harrowby Hall]

Here is a (so far) unexplored on this forum consequence of Brexit to which, as far as I know, neither Jakswan nor Nigel Farage have paid any attention.

My edited quote is from an answer on Quora given by a retired senior French civil servant.

Great Britain imports around 20TWh per year, or more than 5% of its [electricity]consumption, mainly from France and the Netherlands. Power lines connecting the British Isles to the mainland are vital for powering and balancing the grid.
The electricity exchange capacity on the IFA 2000 submarine cable between France and England has been open to competition since 1 April 2001. However, the maximum transmission capacity of this link is limited to 2,000 Megawatts (MW). In order to allocate in a fair and non-discriminatory way the right of passage over this link to all market players (traders, suppliers, producers, etc.), the French and English transmission system operators, RTE and National Grid set up, from 1 April 2001, in a coordinated way, an auction system which is a bilateral mechanism for allocating electricity capacity.
…
They are likely to be frozen or slowed down until the regulatory framework is clarified, resulting in a deterioration of energy security in the British Isles. A good thing though: even within the WTO, electricity trade (as well as oil, gas or coal) between Britain and the EU will not be subject to tariffs.
Finally, the exit of the European Economic Area should lead to the exit of the Internal Energy Market. This system allows the coupling of electricity markets and facilitates cross-border balancing. Leaving the internal energy market will make balancing the UK grid even more difficult and pull electricity prices up. This should also increase volatility, already high in Britain with serious consequences for new electricity providers that have multiplied in the country for 5 years and are experiencing significant difficulties.

How on earth will the UK be able to meet the supposed increase in demand for its products if it can't plug its electric kettles into a reliable electricity source? Will the UK have to go cap-in-hand to China again, and beg for another nuclear power station to be built (at excessive cost) ready to go on-line in about 20 years time?

[Aruntraveller]

Here's another one. My Mum is in a care home - the owners of which have written to me informing that the fees will rise by 7.9% from February. Some of this increase is due to the lack of EU workers who have already left after the referendum vote, leading to an increased reliance on agency staff.

To put that in context 7.9% equates to just over £50 a week on my Mum's bill - an extra £2,600 a year. Now I know there are other factors at work - not least the fact that self funders like my Mum subsidise residents who are paid for by the local authority because they can't afford to pay the full costs of social care - but the leave vote puts another pressure on an already stretched and pressurised area of social care.

But do remind me Brexiteers when does this become a price worth paying?

[jakswan]

Ooh look a lecture on tribalism from a Brexiteer.

Irony will never die.

Tribalism as I used it is to label those on the 'other side' with derogatory terms and to use a large dose of prejudice.

Please explain your post.

[jakswan]

Yes, but being a Brexiteer does mean that he will be totally devoid of any understanding of the irony.

Which implies all Brexiteers are stupid?

Isn't continuing to be a member of the European Union a common vision?

Yes but not all remainers now want that, besides JP accused Brexiters of not having a common vision for the country, which I wouldn't expect since its such a wide remit.

[jakswan]

No. Of course not. We all wanted to carry on in  the EU.

We were all asked to vote on a single issue those that voted all had different visions for the country.

You are transparently trying to deflect from the point. It's the Brexiteers that wanted us to leave and the Brexiteers that needed to come up with a coherent vision of what leaving should look like. Stop trying to blame the Remainers for the Brexiteers screw up.

Newsflash the country is leaving and we live in a democracy so exactly how we leave should be on that basis. I know you want to sit in the corner with the dummy on the floor telling us how horrible it all is and losing the vote wasn't your fault, but the grown ups need to decide what happens next.

[Aruntraveller]

And as has been previously pointed out "the grown ups" in this case aka the tories are doing a splendid job of it. For the hard of thinking "splendid" in this instace is dripping with sarcasm.

[Aruntraveller]

Tribalism as I used it is to label those on the 'other side' with derogatory terms and to use a large dose of prejudice.

Please explain your post.

One thing I would not accuse you of is being stupid. So I'm sure you've worked it out for yourself by now.

[jeremyp]

Yes but not all remainers now want that, besides JP accused Brexiters of not having a common vision for the country,

It wasn't an accusation, it was a statement of fact.

which I wouldn't expect since its such a wide remit.

Well, I'm really not understanding why Brexiteers didn't hold off the actual Brexit until they did have a common understanding. I think the negotiations would be going much better if everybody knew what we were aiming at.

[jakswan]

It wasn't an accusation, it was a statement of fact.

It was an accusation in that you expect one group of people who voted on a single issue to have the same vision for the country.

Well, I'm really not understanding why Brexiteers didn't hold off the actual Brexit until they did have a common understanding. I think the negotiations would be going much better if everybody knew what we were aiming at.

I think you are still misunderstanding, as a result of the vote the country is leaving the EU, not Brexiters the country, Remainers, Brexiters all have an input, via democratic means, to have a say on what the final deal with the EU should be. Subject to negotiations we can then say what the deal could be.

[jeremyp]

We were all asked to vote on a single issue those that voted all had different visions for the country.

Wrong.

The Remainers all had the same goal of staying in the EU.

I know you want to sit in the corner with the dummy on the floor telling us how horrible it all is and losing the vote wasn't your fault, but the grown ups need to decide what happens next.

I'm saying that the winners of the vote needed to decide before starting out on the actual leaving part.

Would you really characterise the Brexit negotiations as going well? Be honest.

[jeremyp]

It was an accusation in that you expect one group of people who voted on a single issue to have the same vision for the country.

You don't really read other people's posts, do you. I didn't say "all the people that voted one way", I said "Brexiteers".

I think you are still misunderstanding, as a result of the vote the country is leaving the EU, not Brexiters the country

Yes, unfortunately. We all have to go through the pain and hardship for something that Brexiteers can't even agree on.

Remainers, Brexiters all have an input, via democratic means, to have a say on what the final deal with the EU should be. Subject to negotiations we can then say what the deal could be.

What is the mechanism for me to get my say on the final deal? What if the majority of people don't like it - and it is very likely that the majority of people won't like it because the hard Brexiteers won't like a soft Brexit and the soft Brexiteers won't like a hard Brexit.

[Sriram]

If this is a fall out of Brexit...its probably a good thing!

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-42452950

*********

Long before Manchester had football, it had cotton.

The city and surrounding region was built on the success of spinning and sewing during the industrial revolution, giving rise to its catchy nickname, Cottonopolis.

But as production slowed, moved off shore and we began to import, the beautiful red brick mills in the North West fell silent.

Now, ending a 40-year hiatus, cotton is once again back on the production line.

After a £6m investment, textile manufacturer English Fine Cottons has started spinning cotton imported from the sunny fields of southern California to here in Greater Manchester, producing yarn that's being used across the region in a newly reopened supply chain.

"It's really re-engaged the weavers and the finishers and the dyers to pull together and forge those chains back again, and there's an enormous appetite for provenance and British made and the quality that we're making here as well," says Tracy Hawkins, managing director of English Fine Cottons.

In an area rooted in centuries of textile history, expertise and resounding pride, the cotton process has slowly been sewn back together.

*********

[jeremyp]

If this is a fall out of Brexit...its probably a good thing!

It's not the fall out of Brexit. We haven't yet left the EU so all this was done under EU rules in the EU single market.

In fact, depending on the deal we get, it might be snuffed out by Brexit - if they whack on a tariff for import of textiles.

[jakswan]

Wrong.

The Remainers all had the same goal of staying in the EU.

Remaining in the EU and a vision for the country are two different, albeit slightly overlapping, things.

I'm saying that the winners of the vote needed to decide before starting out on the actual leaving part.

First that would be impossible to decide since no one could know what the EU negotiations would lead to and secondly, despite losing, the remainers still have a valid voice in what happens next.

Would you really characterise the Brexit negotiations as going well? Be honest.

As expected, still thinking it will be free trade, freedom of movement of labour sort of deal.

[jakswan]

You don't really read other people's posts, do you. I didn't say "all the people that voted one way", I said "Brexiteers".

If you are using Remainers as all those that voted one way then I think you are forced to use the opposite term the same way.

Yes, unfortunately. We all have to go through the pain and hardship for something that Brexiteers can't even agree on.

We all have to go through the pain and hardship for something that Remainers can't even agree on, some want another vote on the deal, some want to get out, some want to ignore the result.

What is the mechanism for me to get my say on the final deal? What if the majority of people don't like it - and it is very likely that the majority of people won't like it because the hard Brexiteers won't like a soft Brexit and the soft Brexiteers won't like a hard Brexit.

Write to MP, campaign, try to change peoples minds to your thinking with persuasive argument, vote in elections. Being abusive of others on an internet forum I suspect isn't going to get you far.

I think a proportion of the population say 25% ish think leaving the EU is one of the the biggest disasters in the history of the country, had the LibDems won 25% of the vote then most likely Brexit would not be happening.

Funny thing is though people that talk like Brexit as a disaster, like you, I don't recall campaigning for the LibDems in the last election, some feel its easier to sit on the sidelines I guess.

[jeremyp]

First that would be impossible to decide since no one could know what the EU negotiations would lead to and secondly, despite losing, the remainers still have a valid voice in what happens next.

Rubbish.

The negotiations might force us to modify our goals but there should have been a clear vision as to where we wanted to end up when we started. There should also have been a realistic assessment of what the EU would let us have and it should all have been communicated clearly to the public.

As expected, still thinking it will be free trade, freedom of movement of labour sort of deal.

You were expected the complete screw up that is unfolding?

[jakswan]

Rubbish.

Bluster.

The negotiations might force us to modify our goals but there should have been a clear vision as to where we wanted to end up when we started. There should also have been a realistic assessment of what the EU would let us have and it should all have been communicated clearly to the public.

It was if we left the EU we would be out of the single market, leaders of both leave and remain campaigns said that.

The two campaigns leave and remain made claims but neither would be forming a Govt, an election was held post Brexit both leave parties Labour and Tory romped home.

You were expected the complete screw up that is unfolding?

I think the Govt have not been great but expect it be a long difficult negotiation.

[jeremyp]

We all have to go through the pain and hardship for something that Remainers can't even agree on, some want another vote on the deal, some want to get out, some want to ignore the result.

No. If the Remainers had prevailed we would have stayed inside the EU with all the rights and benefits we have had for forty years.

Being abusive of others on an internet forum I suspect isn't going to get you far.

Being abusive does not help. Fortunately, I don't see anybody on this forum being abusive. On the other hand, the the abuse that Remainers have had to take since the referendum just because we still disagree  with the Brexiteers has been absolutely corrosive. In particular, the Brexiteer press can only be described as rabid.

I think a proportion of the population say 25% ish think leaving the EU is one of the the biggest disasters in the history of the country

A much larger proportion, while not putting it in those terms, would rather it wasn't happening. If the opinion polls are correct, it's 10% more than the proportion that wants to carry on with Brexit.

, had the LibDems won 25% of the vote then most likely Brexit would not be happening.

Funny thing is though people that talk like Brexit as a disaster, like you, I don't recall campaigning for the LibDems in the last election.

Well I did in a small way as a matter of fact.

[jeremyp]

It was if we left the EU we would be out of the single market, leaders of both leave and remain campaigns said that.

Some Leavers wanted us out of the Single Market, some wanted us in. The government seemed to be trying to keep it secret. Now it looks like, we will have to stay in in order to resolve the Irish border problem. I'm sure some of the Brexiteers are unhappy about that.

The two campaigns leave and remain made claims but neither would be forming a Govt, an election was held post Brexit both leave parties Labour and Tory romped home.

That's an interesting way to put it. The Tories lost their majority and yet Labour failed to turf them out. That's not romping for either party. I think Labour would have romped home if they'd promised to at least pause Brexit to take stock of the situation and provide a coherent plan of where we hope to end up.

I think the Govt have not been great but expect it be a long difficult negotiation.

That's an understatement. So what happened to the impact assessments do you think? Was David Davies lying when he said they were too complicated to let us see them or is he lying now when he says they don't exist?

[jakswan]

No. If the Remainers had prevailed we would have stayed inside the EU with all the rights and benefits we have had for forty years.

Yes but they lost and how they want to proceed on Brexit is not all the same.

Being abusive does not help. Fortunately, I don't see anybody on this forum being abusive. On the other hand, the the abuse that Remainers have had to take since the referendum just because we still disagree  with the Brexiteers has been absolutely corrosive. In particular, the Brexiteer press can only be described as rabid.

Some of the press has not been great, having a go at them with a suggestion that all Brexiteers are the same is abusive.

A much larger proportion, while not putting it in those terms, would rather it wasn't happening. If the opinion polls are correct, it's 10% more than the proportion that wants to carry on with Brexit.

Opinion polls count for little, elections and referendums do.

[jakswan]

Some Leavers wanted us out of the Single Market, some wanted us in. The government seemed to be trying to keep it secret. Now it looks like, we will have to stay in in order to resolve the Irish border problem. I'm sure some of the Brexiteers are unhappy about that.

But some will be happy and so will many remainers.

That's an interesting way to put it. The Tories lost their majority and yet Labour failed to turf them out. That's not romping for either party. I think Labour would have romped home if they'd promised to at least pause Brexit to take stock of the situation and provide a coherent plan of where we hope to end up.

Ahh yes if, as it was they were pro-Brexit

Today:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42503659

"Tom Brake, Brexit spokesman for the Liberal Democrats, said the Labour leadership had "shirked their responsibility" to provide effective opposition to the government.

"The Labour leadership has constantly played a game of smoke and mirrors over their Brexit position.

"But here they are nailing their colours to the mast in support of hard Brexit," he added.

That's an understatement. So what happened to the impact assessments do you think? Was David Davies lying when he said they were too complicated to let us see them or is he lying now when he says they don't exist?"[/i]

Take it up with him.

[Gordon]

Interesting resignation letter from Lord Adonis to the Maybot - worth a read.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42515637