Brexit - the next steps

[ProfessorDavey]

Labour mostly voted for the European Union Referendum Act 2015.

You claimed that almost all parties supported the referendum as far back as May 2014, when UKIP won the largest vote share in the European Parliamentary election. That is simply untrue as in the General Election in May the following year just the Tories, UKIP and DUP had an in/out referendum in their election manifesto. Those parties that didn't support an in/out referendum on the EU include Labour, LibDems, Greens, SNP, Plaid plus most of the Northern Ireland parties.

So your statement that: 'almost all parties supported the referendum especially after UKIP won in 2014' is flat out wrong. If you had said 'especially after the Tory election win in 2015' perhaps you'd have a point, but you didn't - you claimed support back to 2014.

You might support another vote (unlike Labour leadership) if that passes and we have the vote and remain wins, anyone who says we only stayed because of a small bunch of moderates wanted it would be dishonest.

Could you rephrase please so that this makes sense.

[jakswan]

You claimed that almost all parties supported the referendum as far back as May 2014, when UKIP won the largest vote share in the European Parliamentary election. That is simply untrue as in the General Election in May the following year just the Tories, UKIP and DUP had an in/out referendum in their election manifesto. Those parties that didn't support an in/out referendum on the EU include Labour, LibDems, Greens, SNP, Plaid plus most of the Northern Ireland parties.

So your statement that: 'almost all parties supported the referendum especially after UKIP won in 2014' is flat out wrong. If you had said 'especially after the Tory election win in 2015' perhaps you'd have a point, but you didn't - you claimed support back to 2014.
Could you rephrase please so that this makes sense.

Pedantry 101.

[Aruntraveller]

Pedantry 101.

Or just pointing out your obvious and elementary error.

The choice is yours.

[jakswan]

Or just pointing out your obvious and elementary error.

The choice is yours.

I stick with pedantry since there was no error on my part.

[ProfessorDavey]

I stick with pedantry since there was no error on my part.

There was a very clear error on your part as it is clear that following the 2014 European parliamentary election most parties did not support an in/out referendum, as was apparent from their 2015 General Election manifestos, contrary to your claim - so your statement was flat out wrong.

And I don't think that pointing out clearly incorrect statements is pedantry.

[jakswan]

There was a very clear error on your part as it is clear that following the 2014 European parliamentary election most parties did not support an in/out referendum, as was apparent from their 2015 General Election manifestos, contrary to your claim - so your statement was flat out wrong.

And I don't think that pointing out clearly incorrect statements is pedantry.

Let me rephrase then.

Almost all parties supported the Referendum Bill especially in light of the fact that UKIP won in 2014.

Was it abundantly clear that is what I meant, no, was I saying that all most political parties supported a vote in 2014, no.

You could have asked for clarification but no, jumped to a conclusion so you could claim I made an error.

Could be considered misrepresentation but lets leave it all go because this sort of debate about nothing bores me senseless.   

[ProfessorDavey]

Almost all parties supported the Referendum Bill especially in light of the fact that UKIP won in 2014.

Nope still wont do.

As far as I am aware not a single party changed its position on an in/out referendum un light of the result of the 2014 European Parliamentary election. I could be wrong, but I think the onus is on you to name one as you are the person making the claim that somehow the 2014 European Parliamentary election was critical in terms of parties supporting a referendum.

The facts are that prior to the 2015 General Election most parties did not support a referendum, and those that did were already pledged to holding a referendum prior to the 2014 European Parliamentary election.

[jakswan]

Nope still wont do.

Actually wrong again.

As far as I am aware not a single party changed its position on an in/out referendum un light of the result of the 2014 European Parliamentary election. I could be wrong, but I think the onus is on you to name one as you are the person making the claim that somehow the 2014 European Parliamentary election was critical in terms of parties supporting a referendum.

Its not a claim its opinion, no onus on me sonny.

The facts are that prior to the 2015 General Election most parties did not support a referendum, and those that did were already pledged to holding a referendum prior to the 2014 European Parliamentary election.

Ahhh facts, you get the onus.

So please list the parties and cite their opposition to a refendum, please note quoting their manifesto's won't do since you need to prove 'did not support'.

Going to be tricky since in 2015 the majority of parties actually voted through parliment (with a massive majority) the EU Referendum Bill.

Davey so far wrong on Brexit, wrong on art50 getting through Parliament, wrong on there being an early election, wrong on DUP supporting staying in single market, so far wrong on Labour changing policy on another referendum.

This list keeps getting longer, will we add another today?

[jeremyp]

More evidence that Vote Leave broke the rules.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43680969

[Nearly Sane]

David Davis shows he's a bit confused


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/04/how-dare-david-davis-blame-sinn-fein-for-the-irish-border-mess/

[Nearly Sane]

Unity in Scotland - apart from the Tories who are lying about the idea that this is just an SNP position.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-43951071

[Gordon]

Not to worry: it is all going smoothly (not).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43951405

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Stephen Baker. Would you buy a second hand car from this man?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Two alarming misconceptions gleaned from LBC.

That we have already left europe

All we want to do is leave europe, none of the rest of it, just leave Europe.

Britain will be like the couple where one partner will drag the other out of something they have invested in on emotional grounds.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Customs partnership-flawed
Maximum facilitation-science and financial fiction in that Brexiteers want it but they don't want to pay for it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Shit approaching fan.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/06/justine-greening-warns-young-voters-wont-forgive-damaging-brexit-deal

[Rhiannon]

The big news is probably the extent of the Labour rebellion, but I find something rather funny about the Duke of Wellington giving the government a kicking over Europe.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-eu-withdrawal-bill-house-lords-peers-deal-vote-customs-union-a8341706.html

[jeremyp]

The big news is probably the extent of the Labour rebellion, but I find something rather funny about the Duke of Wellington giving the government a kicking over Europe.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-eu-withdrawal-bill-house-lords-peers-deal-vote-customs-union-a8341706.html

The European union that the First Duke of Wellington stopped was somewhat less democratic than the current one.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The Daily Mail wants shot of the House of Lords. That's a bit socialist isn't it?
Could anyone remind me the name given to right wing nationalist parties which want socialist policies?

[jeremyp]

So it turns out that Leave.eu was cheating during the referendum campaign.

Where does that leave the democratic vote? Can people stop treating it as though it was God's word dictated from on high?

[Harrowby Hall]

Can people stop treating it as though it was God's word dictated from on high?

I don't think that they are. In the case of the Maybot, I believe that pretending it might be so is the device she is using to maintain her position in the Conservative Party. Johnson, too, sees his best chance of becoming leader and hence PM as being to placate the neanderthal throwbacks in the party. In May's case it is about survival, in Johnson's it is the ultimate proof of the Peter Principle.

Both of them are putting the interests of the Conservative Party above those of the nation.

[Harrowby Hall]

So it turns out that Leave.eu was cheating during the referendum campaign.

Where does that leave the democratic vote? Can people stop treating it as though it was God's word dictated from on high?

Sorry, Jeremyp, I see that you were perhaps making a more general statement than my reply would suggest.   Do you think that it is the relative infrequency of referendum in our political history that may be responsible for this? In spite of the fact that the referendum was legally advisory only, was inadequately prepared for by both sides, would not have been considered conclusive in those democracies in which referendums are customary and which, from a probability theory viewpoint produced an unclear result, there were numbers involved. And where there are numbers there is absolute certainty.

Absence of rational thought.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Miliband pops up

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Government send the first ever and probably the most junior minister from the Bwexit ministry.
As everything to do with getting Kent ready for the big day It's too little too late. Everything that is apart from the contempt May has for the region.
Charlie Elphicke not nearly pushy enough. The Tories can expect to lose Dover next time round.

[Gordon]

It looks likely, not that there was ever much doubt, that Holyrood will refuse consent for all or part of the EU withdrawal bill: Westminster may choose to forge ahead anyway but this adds yet another complication to the ever-escalating insanity of Brexit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-44108200