Brexit - the next steps

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It does in terms of voter demographics. Non religious people were far more likely to vote remain, religious people far more likely to vote leave.

So in the same manner that people have suggested that the old have screwed the young (and actually the country overall) by tipping the vote for leave, you can make the same argument that the religious have screwed the non religious (and actually the country overall) by tipping the vote for leave.

Yes but the point is things are meant to get better in an increasingly atheist situation.


It's not happening here.


Brexit is an English thing and as Paxman has pointed out Religion has never actually been that big in England.

[ProfessorDavey]

And the old are also more likely to be religious.

True

[Rhiannon]

Lol
People who talk about dark and evil are poisonous and dangerous.

I'm afraid around here words like dark and evil are joke words and the real power to insult and undermine is in thewords Poisonous and Dangerous.


You are just upping the Anti.

I asked you on another thread if you realise how scary you sound. Do you? I wonder what it is that has made you so fundamentalist?

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes but the point is things are meant to get better in an increasingly atheist situation.

If the decision had been left to the non religious we wouldn't be leaving and we wouldn't be in this turmoil.

[ProfessorDavey]

Brexit is an English thing ...

Really - I thought Wales voted Leave too.

[ProfessorDavey]

... Religion has never actually been that big in England.

But big enough to deliver a minority of the population who are old, socially conservative, backward looking and religious (no doubt you know exactly the type of people I'm talking about) who are the core leave demographic. And it only took 1.3 million (2% of the population) to swing the vote to leave.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I asked you on another thread if you realise how scary you sound. Do you? I wonder what it is that has made you so fundamentalist?

Don't you realise how scary you sound?


Of course not.

 The 'non religious' often think  are right and more righteous than religious people at which you will quote your non threatening religious friends who you probably like because they are almost like you but they actually have no effect on your campaigning anti Christianity.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes but the point is things are meant to get better in an increasingly atheist situation.


It's not happening here.


Brexit is an English thing and as Paxman has pointed out Religion has never actually been that big in England.

Ah, so they are the wrong type of religious.

[Rhiannon]

Don't you realise how scary you sound?


Of course not.

 The 'non religious' often think  are right and more righteous than religious people at which you will quote your non threatening religious friends who you probably like because they are almost like you but they actually have no effect on your campaigning anti Christianity.

I don’t think that ordinary people are ‘dark’ and ‘evil’ for disagreeing with my religious beliefs. But there is a frightening absence of compassion and empathy in the hearts of those who do.

What would you say the correct course of action should be against evil people such as those you encounter on this forum?

[ProfessorDavey]

Ah, so they are the wrong type of religious.

The most pro-leave religious group by a country mile were CofE/Anglicans with a 60:40 split toward leave. The non religious were 57:43 in favour of remain.

[Rhiannon]

The most pro-leave religious group by a country mile were CofE/Anglicans with a 60:40 split toward leave. The non religious were 57:43 in favour of remain.

What about non-Christian religious groups? I know that my Jewish friends voted leave.

As an aside, my older relatives did too; all Anglicans, although not practicing.

[ProfessorDavey]

What about non-Christian religious groups? I know that my Jewish friends voted leave.

As an aside, my older relatives did too; all Anglicans, although not practicing.

Muslims voted heavily to remain; Jews mildly in favour of leave; RC and Church in Scotland mildly remain; other Christian mildly leave; other non christian fairly strongly remain.

Details here

http://www.brin.ac.uk/2017/how-religious-groups-voted-at-the-2016-referendum-on-britains-eu-membership/

[Rhiannon]

Muslims voted heavily to remain; Jews mildly in favour of leave; RC and Church in Scotland mildly remain; other Christian mildly leave; other non christian fairly strongly remain.

Details here

http://www.brin.ac.uk/2017/how-religious-groups-voted-at-the-2016-referendum-on-britains-eu-membership/

Thank you. It's interesting, isn't it, how strongly Anglicanism is bound up with nationalism.

[ProfessorDavey]

Thank you. It's interesting, isn't it, how strongly Anglicanism is bound up with nationalism.

Not entirely sure it is nationalism per se. I think it is tied to groups who are old and socially conservative, and likely politically conservative too. It is more about being backward looking, perceiving some fantasy golden period when everything was great.

I suspect the is also an element of loss of power and control - don't forget that for decades the establishment and elite were conservative Anglicans, and there will have been a perception amongst those in that demographic, even if not themselves elite, that they were part of the group that 'ran things' and made the decisions, which largely aligned with that way of thinking.

Fast forward to today and that elite power block is diminishing, we accept much greater diversity, we don't automatically show defence to the kay establishment blocks (CofE, Monarchy, Conservative party). That must be tough for people brought up in a world where there simply assumed they were part of that ruling establishment.

[Rhiannon]

Not entirely sure it is nationalism per se. I think it is tied to groups who are old and socially conservative, and likely politically conservative too. It is more about being backward looking, perceiving some fantasy golden period when everything was great.

I suspect the is also an element of loss of power and control - don't forget that for decades the establishment and elite were conservative Anglicans, and there will have been a perception amongst those in that demographic, even if not themselves elite, that they were part of the group that 'ran things' and made the decisions, which largely aligned with that way of thinking.

Fast forward to today and that elite power block is diminishing, we accept much greater diversity, we don't automatically show defence to the kay establishment blocks (CofE, Monarchy, Conservative party). That must be tough for people brought up in a world where there simply assumed they were part of that ruling establishment.

I agree with some of that. IME of Anglicanism the pews are most definitely full of conservatives, but the leadership isn't - Runcie wasn't, and Rowan Williams definitely wasn't, and nor are many senior Anglican bishops and thinkers. But I don't think you can escape the strength of the attachment to 'the way we do things' - everything from liturgy to afternoon tea to the (in some places) unhealthy obsession with the church buildings themselves. From my perspective in having experienced the rural church, I really do think that identifying with the church is a way of identifying as English. I think you are right that there is a 'harking back' to a golden era, but in rural areas that era hasn't really ended in many ways and they want to hang onto it. And what they are trying to both hang onto and recapture is a form of Englishness that is encapsulated by going to church in their Sunday best.

[ProfessorDavey]

I agree with some of that. IME of Anglicanism the pews are most definitely full of conservatives, but the leadership isn't - Runcie wasn't, and Rowan Williams definitely wasn't, and nor are many senior Anglican bishops and thinkers.

I'm not sure I agree with that - while Runcie, Williams etc might seem less socially conservative than many rank and file Anglicans they don't when considered in a broader societal perspective. In broader society you wouldn't need to be thought of as way at the radical thinking end societally to have moved comfortably to a place where it is completely accepted that there should be equality on the basis of gender and sexuality, yet the CofE is still struggling with both, and neither Runcie nor Williams really addressed the issues properly.

Effectively the leadership of the CofE comes across as achingly establishment, and seeing their main remit as preserving the established social order, not rocking the boat.

Now you can, of course, claim that Runcie and Williams came over all radical and liberal when telling broader society and government how to act. But frankly I'm not really interested in what people tell others to do - you tell whether someone is socially conservative by how they run their own organisation, and I can't see anything other than establishment social conservatism in any of the recent ABofCs - sure some were even more extreme in their social conservatism (e.g. Carey) but not one could be considered socially liberal or radical.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Brexit only acceptable with compensation of Brexit loss by top tax payers and companies.

If Brexit is a success the lower the tax for top tax payers if it is a failure the more punitive the tax.

Or make Brexit something we have to pay subscription for. Cost it up then only do it if there are enough subs.


£1000 per year

[Nearly Sane]

Brexit only acceptable with compensation of Brexit loss by top tax payers and companies.

If Brexit is a success the lower the tax for top tax payers if it is a failure the more punitive the tax.

Or make Brexit something we have to pay subscription for. Cost it up then only do it if there are enough subs.


£1000 per year

Why would not apply that to remain?

[Nearly Sane]

Is this principle, or positioning from Greening?



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44840154

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Is this principle, or positioning from Greening?



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44840154

A bid for a proper referendum taking the complexities of the situation into account.


Johnson himself at one stage proposed two referendums where the EU had time to respond to the first which would unlike the Cameron ballot paper have signalled just what we wanted from remain or leave.

[Nearly Sane]

A bid for a proper referendum taking the complexities of the situation into account.


Johnson himself at one stage proposed two referendums where the EU had time to respond to the first which would unlike the Cameron ballot paper have signalled just what we wanted from remain or leave.

Do we know? There are least 3 positions in the govt currently and one of them, Hard Brexit,  still isn't clear to me. Further her line seems to be that it should be a referendum because Parliament is split, it's not clear to me that the country isn't just as split.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Do we know? There are least 3 positions in the govt currently and one of them, Hard Brexit,  still isn't clear to me. Further her line seems to be that it should be a referendum because Parliament is split, it's not clear to me that the country isn't just as split.

Perhaps things would normalise if we got straight to the root of the problem which is English Nationalism.
This would involve England removing itself from the UK or to put it in a way suitable for local consumption 'get rid of Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The trouble is that England would then not have, in it's own eyes, territorial 'possessions'.

[Nearly Sane]

Perhaps things would normalise if we got straight to the root of the problem which is English Nationalism.
This would involve England removing itself from the UK or to put it in a way suitable for local consumption 'get rid of Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The trouble is that England would then not have, in it's own eyes, territorial 'possessions'.

  And the Welsh?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

  And the Welsh?

They want Brexit and I'm sure would stick with England were push come to shove.

[Nearly Sane]

They want Brexit and I'm sure would stick with England were push come to shove.

So it's not just about English nationalism then.