Brexit - the next steps

[Nearly Sane]

While I would hope that we get some sort of solution that avoids no deal, my reading of a lot of writing on the Remain sides seems to show the same sort of faith based attitude that is apparent in some Brexiteer stuff. It seems to me that while there may be some reasonable numbers who have changed their minds, the rhetoric on both sides becomes ever more hysterical.

[wigginhall]

I think that's true about hysteria, but isn't one reason for that the lack of information?  For example, the rumours about stockpiling are increasing, partly because the govt is giving nods and winks, well, there might be or might not be.  It's a kind of information vacuum, and it's been going on for two years.

[Nearly Sane]

The thing is though it's not just Brexit this seems to apply on. Have a look at the discussions online about anti Semitism in the Labour Party, or indeed on anything to do with Trump. Elsewhere i had got involved in a discussion between two different groups trying to save orangutans, and in 10 tweets it was all Sharks and Jets. Extremism is the new centrism.

[jeremyp]

Yes, I could see that Labour were using ambiguity over Brexit to stop Leave voters flipping during the election, but now it's irresponsible.   They have a duty as opposition to oppose, but Corbyn is carrying the Tories' bags for them.  They are not even proposing the single market.

Corbyn is a Brexiteer. That's the reason why they aren't full on campaigning to Remain now.

[jeremyp]

While I would hope that we get some sort of solution that avoids no deal, my reading of a lot of writing on the Remain sides seems to show the same sort of faith based attitude that is apparent in some Brexiteer stuff. It seems to me that while there may be some reasonable numbers who have changed their minds, the rhetoric on both sides becomes ever more hysterical.

Did you read the link I gave about the food supply chain? You seem surprised that people are beginning to panic about the possibility of a no deal Brexit.

[Aruntraveller]

Did you read the link I gave about the food supply chain? You seem surprised that people are beginning to panic about the possibility of a no deal Brexit.

Its not only the food chain, but look at medical drugs. Just checked my tablets, one sourced in Greece, another in Poland,  yet another from Spain. Do we have the capacity to produce these if the supply chain is disrupted?

Does anyone have an answer, apart from the far from satisfactory "it will all turn out alright" ?

[wigginhall]

I don't know if the govt can risk coming clean about shortages of food and medicines.  The danger for them is mass panic, and hostility to Brexit.  Yet if they keep stumm, rumours and leaks will multiply.  Maybe they will keep quiet and hope it goes away.  But comments columns are full of people worrying, where will I get medicine X?

[wigginhall]

Saying that it will be OK is all very well, but why is the NHS stockpiling?  You could try asking them for advice, but I have a funny feeling you will get nowhere.

[Udayana]

Obviously the gov't must avoid mass panic and take whatever action it can to minimise shortages and disruption in the event of a no-deal exit. However, there are still options if we don't have measures in place or a ratified exit agreement by the end of the year:
 

• We can request an extension to the two year negotiating period
• We can call for Article 50 to be suspended
• Depending on further votes or changes of leadership, we could ask for Article 50 to be reversed

Just because a small majority have elected to pull the chain, it doesn't mean we are inevitably flushed down the toilet.

[Nearly Sane]

Did you read the link I gave about the food supply chain? You seem surprised that people are beginning to panic about the possibility of a no deal Brexit.

No, I'm just making the point that people automatically use information as part of their confirmation bias. You will pick the worst news and use it, subconsciously, to portray those in the other side as acting out of faith and vice versa. The idea that fifty % of the populace are just the 'others' is you bring dragged to the extreme by our current public discourse.

[jeremyp]

No, I'm just making the point that people automatically use information as part of their confirmation bias. You will pick the worst news and use it, subconsciously, to portray those in the other side as acting out of faith and vice versa. The idea that fifty % of the populace are just the 'others' is you bring dragged to the extreme by our current public discourse.

The article wasn't news, it was a researched analysis of the consequences on one sector of the UK economy for a no deal Brexit. If you think it was mere hysteria, perhaps you would like to explain why.

[Nearly Sane]

The article wasn't news, it was a researched analysis of the consequences on one sector of the UK economy for a no deal Brexit. If you think it was mere hysteria, perhaps you would like to explain why.

This proves my point, you aren't reading what is written but are just reacting emotionally against any questions. We accept arguments that back is up uncritically but the problem is that we then end up criticising those who don't as being the 'others', which in turn makes those you portray as others more likely to follow the same route. We seem locked in the definition of a vicious circle.

[jeremyp]

This proves my point, you aren't reading what is written but are just reacting emotionally against any questions.

Bullshit.

We accept arguments that back is up uncritically but the problem is that we then end up criticising those who don't as being the 'others', which in turn makes those you portray as others more likely to follow the same route. We seem locked in the definition of a vicious circle.

So do you think the analysis I posted is correct or not? I'm still waiting for anybody to come up with a cogent reason why it is wrong.

And you are wrong in general about the character of this debate. The Remainers, as a rule, are bringing real arguments and evidence to the debate. The Brexiteers bring nothing except desperation. I post a lot of articles that claim various levels of disaster for Brexit as do other Remainers. Why don't the Brexiteers do the same? It's because published well argued rational arguments for Brexit do not exist.

Instead of just complaining about the way the rest of us are conducting this debate, why not join in? If you can find a really solid article that argues Brexit is going to be OK, I'd really like to read it now because I'm dreading the shit storm that looks like it's coming down the road.

I'd so like to be wrong about Brexit.

[Nearly Sane]

Bullshit.
So do you think the analysis I posted is correct or not? I'm still waiting for anybody to come up with a cogent reason why it is wrong.

And you are wrong in general about the character of this debate. The Remainers, as a rule, are bringing real arguments and evidence to the debate. The Brexiteers bring nothing except desperation. I post a lot of articles that claim various levels of disaster for Brexit as do other Remainers. Why don't the Brexiteers do the same? It's because published well argued rational arguments for Brexit do not exist.

Instead of just complaining about the way the rest of us are conducting this debate, why not join in? If you can find a really solid article that argues Brexit is going to be OK, I'd really like to read it now because I'm dreading the shit storm that looks like it's coming down the road.

I'd so like to be wrong about Brexit.

I'm complaining about the 'othering' that is prevalent in so many debates at the moment. Why do you want me to argue for something I haven't said? Might help to show that you are reading poster if you didn't misrepresent them 

[Rhiannon]

Obviously the gov't must avoid mass panic and take whatever action it can to minimise shortages and disruption in the event of a no-deal exit. However, there are still options if we don't have measures in place or a ratified exit agreement by the end of the year:
 

• We can request an extension to the two year negotiating period
• We can call for Article 50 to be suspended
• Depending on further votes or changes of leadership, we could ask for Article 50 to be reversed

Just because a small majority have elected to pull the chain, it doesn't mean we are inevitably flushed down the toilet.

I'm so glad you are posting again, Udayana. There speaks the voice of reason.

[Udayana]

Thanks Rhi

Of-course whatever the reasonable approach, it requires the gov't to be competent and take responsibility.  I.e. must be persuaded and also held to account.   

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting review of Roger Scruton's book Where We Ate: The State of Britain Now

https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/idolatry-home

[Aruntraveller]

To reinforce my point upthread about medication:

https://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/news-and-analysis/news/millions-of-patients-could-be-affected-by-no-deal-brexit-medicines-shortages-says-mhra-chief/20205240.article

[Harrowby Hall]

Interesting review of Roger Scruton's book Where We Ate: The State of Britain Now

https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/idolatry-home

How do I feel about my Englishness? I think that England has provided three men of transcendent genius: Isaac Newton, Charles Darwin and William Shakespeare ... and an artist who was quite possibly the greatest landscape painter who ever lived - William Turner. I am very proud of my national association with these men (and I went to the same school as one of them - though not at the same time). However, I regard them as leading figures in the European culture which largely appears to define humanity. They were a part of the culture which also received contributions from - among many others : Leonardo, Michelangelo, Bach, Schiller, Monet, Voltaire, Beethoven, Galileo ... the list is endless.

I regard myself as English, European and British - in that order.

[jakswan]

Bullshit.

OK.

And you are wrong in general about the character of this debate. The Remainers, as a rule, are bringing real arguments and evidence to the debate. The Brexiteers bring nothing except desperation.

Not all Brexiters post here, some don't because of endless strawmen, hysterical over-emotional posts.

[ippy]

OK.

Not all Brexiters post here, some don't because of endless strawmen, hysterical over-emotional posts.

We're all entitled to our own individual view, remainers come over to me as very far from stupid but are very embittered losers it appears to me and are continuously hitting out at anything they can find no matter how erroneous.

I have to admit I would have felt much the same if the vote had gone the other way, but I don't think I would have gone as far down the, because of endless straw men, hysterical over-emotional posts route, the remainers seem to be going every day.

We, both sides think the other to be tragically wrong it must be worse for the losers, that's life.

Regards ippy

[Nearly Sane]

We're all entitled to our own individual view, remainers come over to me as very far from stupid but are very embittered losers it appears to me and are continuously hitting out at anything they can find no matter how erroneous.

I have to admit I would have felt much the same if the vote had gone the other way, but I don't think I would have gone as far down the, because of endless straw men, hysterical over-emotional posts route, the remainers seem to be going every day.

We, both sides think the other to be tragically wrong it must be worse for the losers, that's life.

Regards ippy

Both Remain and Leave in this thread seem to do the whole us and then approach. Shiny shiny mirrors all round.

[Aruntraveller]

We're all entitled to our own individual view, remainers come over to me as very far from stupid but are very embittered losers it appears to me and are continuously hitting out at anything they can find no matter how erroneous.

I have to admit I would have felt much the same if the vote had gone the other way, but I don't think I would have gone as far down the, because of endless straw men, hysterical over-emotional posts route, the remainers seem to be going every day.

We, both sides think the other to be tragically wrong it must be worse for the losers, that's life.

Regards ippy

So can you answer my concerns about the chain of supply for medicines. Because contrary to what others might think, I happen to believe that this issue is equally important and potentially devastating for both leave and remain voters.

[ad_orientem]

Any organisation not willing to sell the UK medicine and food, or punish the UK as a deterent to others, isn't an organisation worth being part of.

[Nearly Sane]

Any organisation not willing to sell the UK medicine and food, or punish the UK as a deterent to others, isn't an organisation worth being part of.

Except that isn't the issue.