Author Topic: Brexit - the next steps  (Read 417211 times)

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2250 on: August 06, 2018, 01:52:18 PM »
What do you mean by "correct debate"?

My point was just that calling somebody's argument patronising or saying it exhibits confirmation bias without evidence does not help if you are trying to show the argument is wrong. Surely that point stands or falls independently of whether or not I have used such tactics on you in the past.

What evidence would you consider sufficient for something as subjective as judging something to be 'patronising'?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2251 on: August 06, 2018, 01:54:52 PM »
What do you mean by "correct debate"?

My point was just that calling somebody's argument patronising or saying it exhibits confirmation bias without evidence does not help if you are trying to show the argument is wrong. Surely that point stands or falls independently of whether or not I have used such tactics on you in the past.
How do you 'show' something is patronising? As to confirmation bias, surely pouring out that someone takes a set of argument on an article that supports them as true, and rejects the ones that don't because they object to the possible motivation of the person putting them forward is simply an example of confirmation bias?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2252 on: August 06, 2018, 01:57:17 PM »
What evidence would you consider sufficient for something as subjective as judging something to be 'patronising'?
And indeed, when someone claims that the judgement that they have written something is patronising is 'wrong' as Prof D did, how do they show tgat


Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2254 on: August 06, 2018, 02:49:59 PM »

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2255 on: August 06, 2018, 02:58:25 PM »
I know there is an attempt to justify it in the article but the 'women' to quit jobs headline is shallow, fatuous, and plays into stereotypes.

Agree 100%. It's annoying - they ran a similar story recently on how the problems in retail mean that women lose their jobs too. There are only marginally more unpaid female carers. The headline should reflect that people will need to quit work if care homes and service close due to staff shortages.

A lack of carers is still a concern though.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17587
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2256 on: August 06, 2018, 02:59:18 PM »
And yet you were happy to insist that I'd 'implied' something even when the word that you chose to put in my mouth wasn't there, and you kept on insisting that was what I meant even when I told you that it wasn't.
Err - isn't that exactly what you did to me when you accused my of calling you racist (see replies 2201, 2203 and 2206).

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2257 on: August 06, 2018, 03:01:36 PM »
Err - isn't that exactly what you did to me when you accused my of calling you racist (see replies 2201, 2203 and 2206).

You may be right. But it was how I read your post. Mea culpa.

Now I just think your post was arrogant and patronising.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17587
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2258 on: August 06, 2018, 03:09:26 PM »
You may be right. But it was how I read your post. Mea culpa.
So you accept that I never accused you of being racist, and indeed have made it entirely clear that I do not think you are racist.

Rather than me apologising to you for something I never said, perhaps it should be you apologising to me for claiming I made a serious and defamatory accusation, when I never did.

Now I just think your post was arrogant and patronising.
Fine - that's your opinion - other opinions are available.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2259 on: August 06, 2018, 03:11:10 PM »
So you accept that I never accused you of being racist, and indeed have made it entirely clear that I do not think you are racist.

Rather than me apologising to you for something I never said, perhaps it should be you apologising to me for claiming I made a serious and defamatory accusation, when I never did.
Fine - that's your opinion - other opinions are available.

Isn't that what mea culpa means? An admission of wrongdoing?

Being wrong I can live with. At least I don't go out of my way to put people down.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17587
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2260 on: August 06, 2018, 03:27:42 PM »
Isn't that what mea culpa means? An admission of wrongdoing?
Your [almost] apology is accepted.

Being wrong I can live with. At least I don't go out of my way to put people down.
I didn't - I just do not appreciate people accusing me of calling them racist when I didn't.

The rest of my posts are about the BBC article - pointing out that your comment that 'she can't police the county effectively due to Eastern European migrants feuding' isn't consistent with what was written in the article isn't putting you down. It is disagreeing with your interpretation, and I'm not the only one. And I was also clear that given that your original post was on the basis of what you'd remembered from a tv news item some 11 years ago the likely explanation was misremembering rather than anything else.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2261 on: August 06, 2018, 03:28:02 PM »
So you accept that I never accused you of being racist, and indeed have made it entirely clear that I do not think you are racist.

Rather than me apologising to you for something I never said, perhaps it should be you apologising to me for claiming I made a serious and defamatory accusation, when I never did.
Fine - that's your opinion - other opinions are available.
And you will apologise to Rhiannon for portraying her post as talking to someone down the pub who said their friend said? Or do you just want to a hypocrite as well as patronising?

Btw you said I was wrong to find your posting patronising, can you show this as it amounts to an objective claim?

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17587
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2262 on: August 06, 2018, 03:43:42 PM »
And you will apologise to Rhiannon for portraying her post as talking to someone down the pub who said their friend said? Or do you just want to a hypocrite as well as patronising?
This was the 'offending' comment from Rhiannon, in full:

'Or in my neck of the woods, the head of Cambs police is on television giving an interview saying that she can't police the county effectively due to Eastern European migrants feuding. They don't bother the locals, just bring over ancient disagreements from their homelands and stab each other, and as she pointed out, that needs policing in a county where the village bobby on a bike is still a thing.'

Can you explain to me how that is consistent with what was 'officially' reported in the BBC article. For example where on earth do the details about stabbing each other come from, or ancient disagreements. None of that is in the article. It simply isn't there.

In fact a little idle googling of Lithuanian murders in Cambridgeshire in the couple of years prior to the article in 2007 pulls up only one case - and that involved a man dying when his van was set on fire in Wisbech, was ultimately determined to be manslaughter not murder and no-one was ever convicted so we have no idea whether or not it was perpetrated by another Lithuanian let alone whether it was part of an ongoing feud.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2263 on: August 06, 2018, 03:53:00 PM »
This was the 'offending' comment from Rhiannon, in full:

'Or in my neck of the woods, the head of Cambs police is on television giving an interview saying that she can't police the county effectively due to Eastern European migrants feuding. They don't bother the locals, just bring over ancient disagreements from their homelands and stab each other, and as she pointed out, that needs policing in a county where the village bobby on a bike is still a thing.'

Can you explain to me how that is consistent with what was 'officially' reported in the BBC article. For example where on earth do the details about stabbing each other come from, or ancient disagreements. None of that is in the article. It simply isn't there.

In fact a little idle googling of Lithuanian murders in Cambridgeshire in the couple of years prior to the article in 2007 pulls up only one case - and that involved a man dying when his van was set on fire in Wisbech, was ultimately determined to be manslaughter not murder and no-one was ever convicted so we have no idea whether or not it was perpetrated by another Lithuanian let alone whether it was part of an ongoing feud.
That's not the comment in full at all, is it?


Which was:


'Do you have the stats for that?

I've mentioned my mate in Grimsby before. He works as a long haul driver for an agency. One day they are all told that a group of Polish drivers have arrived looking for work, they will do it for less so everyone has to take a wage cut or they won't get work. Not long after, both Brits and Poles are told to take another wage cut because the Romanian drivers have arrived. And the likelihood of this being a rogue employer is what, exactly?

Or in my neck of the woods, the head of Cambs police is on television giving an interview saying that she can't police the county effectively due to Eastern European migrants feuding. They don't bother the locals, just bring over ancient disagreements from their homelands and stab each other, and as she pointed out, that needs policing in a county where the village bobby on a bike is still a thing. So the character of a place changes.

I love the fact that I can find Polish branded food in my local supermarket. We like to try some of it. But to others that will be a change too. Are we 'overrun'? No, but this is new and there will be people who don't like it, just as much as I think it is something to enjoy.'


Which you portrayed incorrectly as being represented by the bit in double quotes here


'Rhiannon - read back what you have just written and think very, very carefully, about how that comes across. I don't believe you are the kind of person who succumbs to the "my mate knows a bloke who had a chat in the pub who told me that all those foreigners are raping our women', but you have to be very, very careful about what you post and how it comes across.'

Which is a misrepresentation for which you should apologise.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17587
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2264 on: August 06, 2018, 03:54:27 PM »
Btw you said I was wrong to find your posting patronising, can you show this as it amounts to an objective claim?
No I didn't.

You made the following claim:

'Be honest with yourself and accept that your post was both patronising and intended to be so.'

You were inferring my intentions which is remarkable given that only I know what I meant by my posts. You were wrong in inferring that I intended to be patronising. Whether you thought it was patronising is besides the point - if you did, fine - that's up you - but as I pointed out other opinions are available.

Valid opinions other than my own are not available as to my intentions as clearly I alone can know those, so I can 100% state you were wrong in implying that I intended to be patronising.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2265 on: August 06, 2018, 03:56:50 PM »
No I didn't.

You made the following claim:

'Be honest with yourself and accept that your post was both patronising and intended to be so.'

You were inferring my intentions which is remarkable given that only I know what I meant by my posts. You were wrong in inferring that I intended to be patronising. Whether you thought it was patronising is besides the point - if you did, fine - that's up you - but as I pointed out other opinions are available.

Valid opinions other than my own are not available as to my intentions as clearly I alone can know those, so I can 100% state you were wrong in implying that I intended to be patronising.
And you said the post was wrong, no qualifying about the part, and I'm sorry but lots of liars say they are telling the truth, that doesn't make their claim objective, does it?

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17587
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2266 on: August 06, 2018, 04:18:30 PM »
And you said the post was wrong, no qualifying about the part,
In which case I shall now qualify - you were wrong to say that I intended to be patronising.

If you found it to be patronising, fine - that's your opinion - other opinions are available.

... and I'm sorry but lots of liars say they are telling the truth, that doesn't make their claim objective, does it?
So are you accusing me of lying then?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2267 on: August 06, 2018, 04:23:23 PM »
In which case I shall now qualify - you were wrong to say that I intended to be patronising.

If you found it to be patronising, fine - that's your opinion - other opinions are available.
So are you accusing me of lying then?
I'm saying that just because you are saying it's true, doesn't make it objective. Surely you agree?

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17587
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2268 on: August 06, 2018, 04:44:38 PM »
I'm saying that just because you are saying it's true, doesn't make it objective. Surely you agree?
That wasn't the question I asked you. Would you like to answer that one please.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2269 on: August 06, 2018, 04:49:36 PM »
That wasn't the question I asked you. Would you like to answer that one please.
It's what I'm saying about your idea that just because you are saying you are writing the truth doesn't make it objective. You may or  may not be telling the truth but your statement that you are is worthless in terms of backing up your claim.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2270 on: August 06, 2018, 04:52:01 PM »
That wasn't the question I asked you. Would you like to answer that one please.

So you can demand apologies and answers yet can't give the same to others.

That said, I haven't asked for an apology from you and I don't want one. In the cold light of day I've realised that your opinion of me means nothing as far as I'm concerned.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2271 on: August 06, 2018, 04:56:37 PM »
Odd that Prof D skipped #2263 which pointed out his incorrect claim to quote Rhiannon in full, and his misrepresentation of that post.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17587
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2272 on: August 06, 2018, 05:04:10 PM »
That said, I haven't asked for an apology from you and I don't want one.
Yes you have:

Reply 2203:

'I want an apology for you calling me racist.'

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2273 on: August 06, 2018, 05:08:32 PM »
Yes you have:

Reply 2203:

'I want an apology for you calling me racist.'

For which I have said that I was wrong. However you continue to misrepresent what I said, and quote 'in full' something that you had edited.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17587
Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2274 on: August 06, 2018, 05:14:47 PM »
Odd that Prof D skipped #2263 which pointed out his incorrect claim to quote Rhiannon in full, and his misrepresentation of that post.
Read post 2262 - note the bit I have italicised:

'This was the 'offending' comment from Rhiannon, in full:'

In other words the full comment that offended me and that I felt would act to provide fuel to those (unlike Rhiannon) who are racist or xenophobic.

Which we now know bears no resemblance to what Julie Spence actually said in the 2007 BBC article, which she later further watered down further.