Author Topic: Brexit - the next steps  (Read 416968 times)

ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2350 on: September 16, 2018, 12:19:40 PM »
Why is that relevant:

You said that '... practically the whole of the media are remainers and unbalanced in this area ...', which implies that:

1. A majority of media supported remain and
2. By using 'practically' that it isn't just a small majority but a very large majority that supported remain.

That is errant non-sense. As I have pointed out broadcast media were impartial and the print media were significantly tipped towards leave. Regardless of whether you include 'practically' in your quote, you are wrong.

So you're implying equality of presentation.

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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2351 on: September 16, 2018, 12:50:50 PM »
The days of the Scottish tail being wagged by the Westminster dog are long gone, Sass.
There is seething resentmrnt here - and not just amongst  Nationalists - that, as the late Labour Frirst Minister said "The democratic will of the Scottiah people" is being steamrollered.
This will lead to asecond Indy ref once the burach of Brexit isworked out and we see just how terrible things will be in Scotland.
What you SHOULD worry about, though, is Northern Ireland.

It's all very well saying the majority of the so-called UK voted to leave - the majority in NI - both sides - voted to remain.
That Westminster ignores their wishes and creates a division that the albeit very fragile peace process healed between north and south, should worry you just as much as the problems finding medicines, paying more for your food, etc, will.
Scotland didn't vote in the referendum. This was not a vote by constituency or region, each person in Scotland had exactly the same influence over the result as everybody else.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2352 on: September 16, 2018, 03:27:33 PM »
So you're implying equality of presentation.

Regards ippy
Yes for broadcast coverage, which is required by law to be impartial.

No for newspaper coverage which was heavily biased towards leave - see the evidence on numbers of papers supporting remain/leave and the circulation of those papers.

Anchorman

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2353 on: September 16, 2018, 03:47:33 PM »
Scotland didn't vote in the referendum. This was not a vote by constituency or region, each person in Scotland had exactly the same influence over the result as everybody else.


   


Scotland is not a region.
We will not be treated like one.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2354 on: September 16, 2018, 07:00:58 PM »
   


Scotland is not a region.
We will not be treated like one.
As far as the EU are concerned Scotland is a region of the UK - see, for example how Scotland is one of the UK regions in European Parliament elections.

However that is besides the point - the point is that the referendum was a UK-wide vote, with the result decided purely on the basis of all the votes cast across the entire UK. Accordingly results were not divided into any constituent parts, whether Scotland (regardless of whether it is considered a country or a region) nor any other part of the UK, e.g. Wales, Northern Ireland, London etc.

jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2355 on: September 16, 2018, 08:07:14 PM »
   


Scotland is not a region.
We will not be treated like one.
Yes it is a region. It is also a country but that doesn’t alter the point. This vote was not like a general election in which regions voted for MPs. Everybody had one vote. Scotland didn’t vote for anyrhing, the people in Scotland voted.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2356 on: September 16, 2018, 08:08:31 PM »
London has a strong case for staying in independently. As strong as Scotland's.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2357 on: September 16, 2018, 08:33:11 PM »
London has a strong case for staying in independently. As strong as Scotland's.
Indeed - if Scotland (or London) wish to stay in the EU independently of the rest of the UK, they have a route to do so. That would be to become an independent sovereign state from the rest of the UK and for the government of that new sovereign state to apply to join the EU as a new accession state.

wigginhall

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2358 on: September 17, 2018, 04:40:35 PM »
Quite a comical sequence, but not for the workers involved.  Head of Jaguar says that a hard Brexit threatens jobs; Tory MP Bernard Jenkin says this is scaremongering;  Jaguar Land Rover announce 3 day week for some staff; Tory govt announce new factory to make magic carpets soon.   I made that bit up.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2359 on: September 18, 2018, 11:33:14 AM »
Yes it is a region. It is also a country but that doesn’t alter the point. This vote was not like a general election in which regions voted for MPs. Everybody had one vote. Scotland didn’t vote for anyrhing, the people in Scotland voted.
In a view of the referendum as discrete from history and politics, that's correct. Thing is, it isn't separate from those things.  The vote in the separate sense gives no more justification for independence for Scotland, than it would if the upper floor in 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam voted remain. In the rather more complex world of things beyond the referendum it's a bit different.


Let's have a look at three areas mentioned that voted Remain. London voted remain, and at the time of the referendum there were some murmurs about the possibility of a city state. Indeed there had been some before that but very occasional. There had been a move to devolving powers after the petty power grab by the Tory govt under Thatcher, and an ongoing campaign to reduce local powers in a number of govts. There is no reason why London could not work as an independent city state in Europe, though there might be some practical difficulties (which I'll mention when I get to Northern Ireland). And yet there isn't any real movement to get this as the solution. I have to admit I think that the various parties that might be interested in speaking for London's interests in the last couple of years as regards the financial industry have been quiet, and I suspect that's because it's viewed as suspicious outside of that bubble. In the end though there is no real push for independence and that makes the feasibility of it, low.


Moving onto Scotland - coming a couple of years after a referendum in which the Unionist side argued that the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU was to vote No, and where 45% voted to eave we have a very different situation than London. Add to that that Scotland is a country with its own legal system, education system, and we have in the grand scheme of things a different situation. That said the vote in the EU referendum alone isn't significant to that, it's the significance it gains within that context. It would be too easy though, as some do, to say portray the Yes vote in the indyref, as somehow homogeneous in it's support for the EU. Indeed it's clear that some of the reluctance to hold an indyref2 arises from the worry that a significant part of the Yes vote is anti EU as well and would maybe switch sides.


And then onto Northern Ireland, where the vote to Remain is then fed back into a situation where the practicalities of day to day become significant in a way that isn't true of elsewhere with the land border. I do wonder if the unrealistic approach take to this over the last two years has dampened down any idea of solutions to London's ambitions, and made any idea of a city state as mentioned above seem completely infeasible. Again while NI is no more than 23 Railway Cuttings in the view of the referendum, the referendum is very much more in terms of the feed back loop into the history and politics of NI. The likelihood of a united Ireland has grown because of the vote and what has happened since.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 12:17:34 PM by Nearly Sane »

wigginhall

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2360 on: September 20, 2018, 04:10:45 PM »
It looks like the EU are definitely  saying no to Chequers.  What now?   All kinds of rumours that the Tory conference will lead to May falling, replaced by Hammond (favouring EEA ), or Mogg (no deal), and maybe others.   Or maybe May will hang on.

Another view, that the EU are dumping May, as they realized how hopeless she is.  Dunno.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 04:26:28 PM by wigginhall »
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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2361 on: September 20, 2018, 07:03:37 PM »

Let's have a look at three areas mentioned that voted Remain.
Areas didn’t vote remain. Areas didn’t vote at all. The only reason we know that the majority of people in Scotland voted remain was due to the way the votes were counted. If you say Scotland voted remain, you are writing about 40% of the voters out of history.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2362 on: September 20, 2018, 08:02:09 PM »
Areas didn’t vote remain. Areas didn’t vote at all. The only reason we know that the majority of people in Scotland voted remain was due to the way the votes were counted. If you say Scotland voted remain, you are writing about 40% of the voters out of history.
Might help if you read the post rather than making up the straw man you did here.

Rhiannon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2363 on: September 21, 2018, 07:45:19 AM »
Theresa May doesn’t look well at the moment.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2364 on: September 21, 2018, 07:54:52 AM »
She is suffering the consequences of putting the interests of the Conservative Party before those of the United Kingdom.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2365 on: September 21, 2018, 09:38:57 AM »
She is suffering the consequences of putting the interests of the Conservative Party before those of the United Kingdom.
I bow to no one in my dislike of our current PM BUT for once I don't think this is the issue. I believe she honestly thinks negotiating some solution is the best thing that can be done, and that she thinks correctly that she has virtually no room for manoeuvre. That Chequers was a farce, immediately destroyed by the fringe of her party, is just the result of that.

Rhiannon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2366 on: September 21, 2018, 09:46:49 AM »
To be fair I don’t know how this hadn’t broken her, or how anyone could manage it. She’s not a nice person. But she’s on a course that cannot end well for her or her country, and she knows it.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2367 on: September 21, 2018, 10:03:44 AM »
To be fair I don’t know how this hadn’t broken her, or how anyone could manage it. She’s not a nice person. But she’s on a course that cannot end well for her or her country, and she knows it.
I don't see it as unmanageable in principle, very difficult - certainly. That she was a lukewarm remainer though was probably the worst choice.

Rhiannon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2368 on: September 21, 2018, 10:10:32 AM »
I don't see it as unmanageable in principle, very difficult - certainly. That she was a lukewarm remainer though was probably the worst choice.

Her heart isn’t in it. She doesn’t believe in it. I think she has a reputation for doing things in which she doesn’t believe - her ‘racist’ policies I think stem from a fanaticism to do what she’s supposed to do, which as Home Secretary was to deliver certain immigration figures. The human cost of those policies, and Brexit, seems to elude her.

wigginhall

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2369 on: September 21, 2018, 11:47:08 AM »
It baffles me that her civil servants have presumably been telling her that Chequers has legs,  when Barnier was saying years ago that you can't chop the single market in bits, and snaffle the bits that you like.   It's true that she is constrained by the Ultras, and can't accept EEA .    Possible, that there will still be some kind of deal, I thought Katya Adler was clever on BBC, that negotiations often seem to break down, in order to then leap to victory.    Maybe.  Otherwise, get the spam and tinned peaches in.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2370 on: September 21, 2018, 11:53:22 AM »
Our local Tesco has at the end of its aisles a load of special offers. For weeks now they have been tinned soup, meat, fruit etc. Stuff in packets that keeps for ages.

jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2371 on: September 21, 2018, 12:01:02 PM »
Might help if you read the post rather than making up the straw man you did here.
I didn't read most of the post because your premise "regions voted" is false and everything you built on it is therefore not reliable.
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wigginhall

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2372 on: September 21, 2018, 12:07:09 PM »
One aspect of no deal is that just in time deliveries will break down, and car production, and other production lines, which rely on JIT, will grind to a halt.   Is that what the hard Brexit people want?   Of course, there might be a side deal to help engineering, but that's not no deal.  Are there any other solutions?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2373 on: September 21, 2018, 12:13:40 PM »
I didn't read most of the post because your premise "regions voted" is false and everything you built on it is therefore not reliable.
Since it is a misstatement of the premise, which you would know were to read it, you are just keeping your local straw supplier in business.

wigginhall

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2374 on: September 21, 2018, 01:05:36 PM »
Our local Tesco has at the end of its aisles a load of special offers. For weeks now they have been tinned soup, meat, fruit etc. Stuff in packets that keeps for ages.

I think stockpiling has been a macabre joke, but come January, there may be panic, and buying in bulk.   Unless of course, a deal happens.  Can you believe that a modern industrial country is contemplating wartime measures?   What insanity has taken us over?
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