Brexit - the next steps

[jeremyp]

Could have been handled much better by both sides, without a doubt.

How could the EU have handled their side better?

[ad_orientem]

How could the EU have handled their side better?

Because they set out to, if not quite punish, then give the UK such a shitty deal so as to put fear into other countries that might want to follow the UK. What they should havw done is try and work out a deal which is beneficial to both.

[Aruntraveller]

Because they set out to, if not quite punish, then give the UK such a shitty deal so as to put fear into other countries that might want to follow the UK. What they should havw done is try and work out a deal which is beneficial to both.

It is quite correct that the EU will want to see the UK as not benefitting, it is important to them to hold the EU together. This could be seen as punishing. However our initial decision to leave could also be seen as the UK wishing to punish the EU for taking so much of our money, our constitutional rights, blah, blah, Eurosceptic blah.

The unvarnished truth remains,  the EU does not have to do anything it doesn't want to. We chose to leave, sadly. It is our decision, we take the consequences.

[ad_orientem]

I would compare it to divorce. An amicable divorce is much better for both parties. Not so when the one or both parties act like dicks.

[Aruntraveller]

I would compare it to divorce. An amicable divorce is much better for both parties. Not so when the one or both parties act like dicks.

I would agree, somewhat. But if you want to view it in divorce terms then we have been much more the wandering dick than the EU has; special treatment, refunds, general awkwardness, personal abuse, as an example I speak of the Farage when he accused MEP's of never having had a proper job when he was speaking next to a former brain surgeon; (and what of worth has Farage ever done) then I think we should be paying a hefty divorce settlement.

In those circumstances I can see that maybe the EU doesn't want a particularly amicable divorce.

[jeremyp]

Because they set out to, if not quite punish, then give the UK such a shitty deal so as to put fear into other countries that might want to follow the UK. What they should havw done is try and work out a deal which is beneficial to both.

Why should they give a deal to Britain that is more beneficial than the deal we already had?

[jeremyp]

I would compare it to divorce. An amicable divorce is much better for both parties. Not so when the one or both parties act like dicks.

I don't think the EU have been behaving like dicks. They have been pretty transparent in their dealings the whole time and it has always been clear what their position is and where their red lines are. Britain is the one messing this up, not the EU.

[Spud]

I would compare it to divorce. An amicable divorce is much better for both parties. Not so when the one or both parties act like dicks.

I wouldn't, I'd compare it to a teenager leaving home and becoming independent.

[Spud]

I don't think the EU have been behaving like dicks. They have been pretty transparent in their dealings the whole time and it has always been clear what their position is and where their red lines are. Britain is the one messing this up, not the EU.

Agreed. It was obvious the 'Chequers plan' would be rejected. Why are they wasting so much time trying to sell it?

[Spud]

At this point I think having an economic border down the Irish Sea is the best option. It doesn't take N. Ireland out of the UK, what's the problem?

[wigginhall]

Agreed. It was obvious the 'Chequers plan' would be rejected. Why are they wasting so much time trying to sell it?

Because Mrs May has painted herself into a corner.  She has ruled out the single market, and industry are screaming that no deal will destroy JIT production, so where do you go?

[Spud]

Because they set out to, if not quite punish, then give the UK such a shitty deal so as to put fear into other countries that might want to follow the UK. What they should havw done is try and work out a deal which is beneficial to both.

A good example being they will not give the UK police access to their crime databases. Blackmail!

[Spud]

Because Mrs May has painted herself into a corner.  She has ruled out the single market, and industry are screaming that no deal will destroy JIT production, so where do you go?

If this is as she says a democratic process: surely a characteristic of democracy is that treaties etc aren't set in stone forever. We voted to leave and we must have had our reasons, so perhaps we should have a go at life independent of the EU. It's just a question of knowing whether they are big enough reasons to outweigh the disadvantages of leaving. That should become clear: will it really be the disaster Remainers say it will be? I recall Jean Claude Junker saying he hoped the UK would rejoin the EU further down the line.

[Spud]

Because Mrs May has painted herself into a corner.  She has ruled out the single market, and industry are screaming that no deal will destroy JIT production, so where do you go?

Straight out the door, and give it a try I'd say. Why waste time negotiating when you know neither side will give in?

[wigginhall]

Straight out the door, and give it a try I'd say. Why waste time negotiating when you know neither side will give in?

So you are happy with closed ports and no flights?.  That seems absurd.  Of course, they will carry on negotiating, a clean break could produce economic collapse.

[Spud]

So you are happy with closed ports and no flights?.  That seems absurd.  Of course, they will carry on negotiating, a clean break could produce economic collapse.

Okay, maybe not straight out the door. I meant they seem to be trying to get special privileges rather than accept being like any other non-EU country.

[Anchorman]

At this point I think having an economic border down the Irish Sea is the best option. It doesn't take N. Ireland out of the UK, what's the problem?

   

If you think Scotland wil keeop quiet whilst Northjern Ireland, which also voted to remain, enjoys single market status, forget it.
We won't.
We will fight for the same privilage as NI.

And we won't be held back by being bribed by May, either.

[wigginhall]

Another issue is that it produces customs checks between N. Ireland and GB.    Yeah, the DUP will love that.

[Gordon]

It is a mess now and something needs to give somewhere and the situation might well change yet.

It seems Labour may now back another referendum, but even then one view is that is shouldn't include an 'abandon Brexit' option, when that must surely be an option. The 'respect the referendum' argument is now a weak one in my view: the referendum occurred for the wrong reasons and backfired, and it was for an 'idea' of Brexit that had no accompanying details and the absence of any meaningful details over two years later, along with the shambles of the current government, does indicate that the outcome of the referendum was a poor one, since otherwise we'd have had a deliverable plan long since - and we don't. It isn't undemocratic to revisit a flawed decision provided the revisit is done democratically.

The Northern Ireland situation will be problematic for as long as the DUP are keeping the Tories in power and any attempt to find a fudge there will be doomed to failure, and with Stormont down a large chunk of the NI electorate have no active political representation which is an affront after all this time. The only option in my view is to contrive a General Election and see where the cards fall then - but of course that is uncertain too (even if it is democratic) and the awaited legal opinion on whether or not Article 50 can be cancelled is another factor.

I find it hard to imagine that those who voted 'Leave' voted for the current mess.

[jakswan]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/24/mcdonnell-new-brexit-referendum-should-not-include-remain-option

A fresh Brexit referendum should be only about a departure deal and should not include the option of staying in the EU, John McDonnell has indicated, in comments likely to dismay Labour members pushing for a so-called people’s vote.

I'm betting now on the next Election being in 2018!

Oct - May bring back outline deal & Parliament vote it down.

We either leave with no deal or another election, Tories win a majority and the deal goes through. If Labour win, Brexit will be the least of our worries!

Not getting Labours negotiating position on Brexit and how it differs from the Tories, it seems to be the same but 'we are nicer people'.

[Shaker]

Not getting Labours negotiating position on Brexit and how it differs from the Tories, it seems to be the same but 'we are nicer people'.

That's hardly a stretch.

[jeremyp]

A fresh Brexit referendum should be only about a departure deal and should not include the option of staying in the EU, John McDonnell has indicated, in comments likely to dismay Labour members pushing for a so-called people’s vote.

That would be pointless and wrong. The default position if a deal is rejected by a referendum should be "don't change anything" (i.e. stay in the EU) not "commit suicide" (i.e. leave the EU with no deal).

[Rhiannon]

If there is a 'People's Vote' and the option for that vote is to accept or decline a 'no deal' (because of a failure to agree terms) then the outcome of voting against that is staying in, surely?

[wigginhall]

I think McDonnell is trying to avoid that, as they don't want to be tagged with denying the original vote.   Ironically, that might be even more popular than his version, but I see the Mail is already running with "Labour betrays the referendum" headlines.  It would be interesting to see how a Remain policy would score now, maybe quite well.

[Udayana]

It has to be either:

"The deal on offer or no-deal"

OR

"The deal on offer or do not leave"

OR

"The deal on offer or continue negotiations"
 
Can't see a referendum giving a three way (or more) option being voted by parliament.

"do not leave" or "continue negotiations" options depend on agreement that Article 50 can be extended or withdrawn by the EU.