Brexit - the next steps

[jakswan]

Which is absurd when you think about it. Parliament would eschew a better deal for a worse one.

Parliament voted through the EU Referendum Bill, there isn't a majority for not doing Brexit.

48% of people who actually voted over two years ago. Do you think the result would be the same if we had the same referendum now?

It was a side point.

A week is a long time in politics.

That quip refers to politicians holding positions, not the positions that politicians hold.  You honestly think that in a week there could be a Parliamentary majority for another referendum? 

Norway would be better than no deal IMO, but it is a deal that nobody in this country is happy with. The Norway deal is the deal that the Daily Mail and Nigel Farage were telling us we have now.

A parliamentary democracy doesn't work on the basis on what people are happy with but what that Parliament is able to pass into Law.

[Rhiannon]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/16/false-promises-brexit-john-major

[Humph Warden Bennett]

From the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

[Nearly Sane]

From the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

That's just a link to the main BBC news page, which will be different when people access it.

[Nearly Sane]

This is deeply depressing and I think that it is way over the top


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/opinion/england-ireland-border-brexit.html

But then I see this

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/stanley-johnson-irish-will-shoot-each-other-brexit-news-gmb/

[Walt Zingmatilder]

This is deeply depressing and I think that it is way over the top


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/opinion/england-ireland-border-brexit.html

But then I see this

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/stanley-johnson-irish-will-shoot-each-other-brexit-news-gmb/

Why is the media concentrating on the likes of Johnson?

[Nearly Sane]

Why is the media concentrating on the likes of Johnson?

Maybe because Corbyn is useless.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Maybe because Corbyn is useless.

Do you really believe that or have you ever thought that Johnson reflects their right wing gammonry?

[Nearly Sane]

Do you really believe that or have you ever thought that Johnson reflects their right wing gammonry?

I suggested an alternative. You are suggesting a conclusion. Evidence?

[Rhiannon]

Maybe because Corbyn is useless.

Isn’t he May’s enabler?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Isn’t he May’s enabler?

How does that work then?

[Rhiannon]

How does that work then?

You ever watched PMQs?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You ever watched PMQs?

Not these days. I rather like my TV set and I would not wish to risk the damage which would ensue from me watching PMQ.

[SteveH]

Oh, you're back.
As for Corbyn being useless, he demolished May's majority at the last election, against all expectations.

[Nearly Sane]

Oh, you're back.
As for Corbyn being useless, he demolished May's majority at the last election, against all expectations.

And his position on Brexit is?

[Harrowby Hall]

Oh, you're back.
As for Corbyn being useless, he demolished May's majority at the last election, against all expectations.

Do you really think so?  I thought that she did it all by herself.

This raises another point. In the United Kingdom we do not vote for prime ministers. Prime ministers are selected by parliamentary political parties and appointed by the monarch. It is quite feasible for an election campaign to be led by a particular individual resulting in the party concerned winning the greatest number of seats but that individual either not being elected in his or her constituency or not being supported by the elected MPs.  Constitutionally we vote for individuals not for governments.

[SteveH]

Do you really think so?  I thought that she did it all by herself.

This raises another point. In the United Kingdom we do not vote for prime ministers. Prime ministers are selected by parliamentary political parties and appointed by the monarch. It is quite feasible for an election campaign to be led by a particular individual resulting in the party concerned winning the greatest number of seats but that individual either not being elected in his or her constituency or not being supported by the elected MPs.  Constitutionally we vote for individuals not for governments.

Theoretically, yes. In practise, we vote for parties.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And his position on Brexit is?

A customs union?

[wigginhall]

Labour seem to be saying that they could negotiate a customs union (not the customs union), more easily.   I have no idea if this is correct, and similarly with the Irish border.  Corbyn is certainly suspect on Brexit, as he seemed all agog for it, until recently.   However, I would take a chance on them doing a better deal, partly because Starmer shows some intelligence.

[Nearly Sane]

Seeing a lot of stuff on Twitter that there is either a customs union deal or no deal as far as EU are concerned. If it is that then surely Labour end up saving May?

[Harrowby Hall]

I would think that the possibility of (say) Vauxhall ceasing manufacture of motor vehicles in the UK and of other motor manufacturers expressing their concerns about the practicality of manufacture in the UK (after all, the Indian-owned "British" company Jaguar-Land Rover has a plant in Slovakia...) is concerning Jeremy Corbyn. It cannot be easy for a Labour Party leader to consider the wholesale closure of a manufacturing industry.

[jeremyp]

Parliament voted through the EU Referendum Bill, there isn't a majority for not doing Brexit.

That doesn't make it not absurd.

It was a side point.

So you don't think Brexit would get through if we had a referendum now.

That quip refers to politicians holding positions, not the positions that politicians hold.  You honestly think that in a week there could be a Parliamentary majority for another referendum? 

The quote - attributed to Harold Wilson - reflects the fact that things change fast in politics. It does not mean that I expect things to literally change in a week.

A parliamentary democracy doesn't work on the basis on what people are happy with but what that Parliament is able to pass into Law.

Why didn't they ignore the stupid referendum then? At the time it happened, a majority of MPs were against leaving the EU. It's probably still true now, but they're all too cowardly to challenge the idea of Brexit in spite of the fact that this is, as you rightly point out, a parliamentary democracy and we shouldn't be defining policy based on the basis of what people were happy with on one day in June 2016.

[Rhiannon]

I would think that the possibility of (say) Vauxhall ceasing manufacture of motor vehicles in the UK and of other motor manufacturers expressing their concerns about the practicality of manufacture in the UK (after all, the Indian-owned "British" company Jaguar-Land Rover has a plant in Slovakia...) is concerning Jeremy Corbyn. It cannot be easy for a Labour Party leader to consider the wholesale closure of a manufacturing industry.

Yes, Corbyn's inner mantra of "British jobs for British workers' is meaningless if there are no jobs to be had in the first place.

[jeremyp]

Oh, you're back.
As for Corbyn being useless, he demolished May's majority at the last election, against all expectations.

It's depressing that so many Corbynites and people of the left treat that election as a victory. The prime minister is still Theresa May.

Yes Corbyn did very well compared to to his polling before the election campaign started, but you have to ask why was his polling so bad? He was up a against a government that was chiefly remembered for cutting public services to the bone for austerity and holding a referendum just to stop the Conservative party from tearing itself apart. After the referendum, the prime minister ran away leading to a period of back stabbing that didn't really stop even after a new leader was elected. Any half way decent party would have been miles ahead in the polls and would have destroyed the Tories if May had been stupid enough to call an election.

Corbyn is totally useless.

[Rhiannon]

It's depressing that so many Corbynites and people of the left treat that election as a victory. The prime minister is still Theresa May.

Yes Corbyn did very well compared to to his polling before the election campaign started, but you have to ask why was his polling so bad? He was up a against a government that was chiefly remembered for cutting public services to the bone for austerity and holding a referendum just to stop the Conservative party from tearing itself apart. After the referendum, the prime minister ran away leading to a period of back stabbing that didn't really stop even after a new leader was elected. Any half way decent party would have been miles ahead in the polls and would have destroyed the Tories if May had been stupid enough to call an election.

Corbyn is totally useless.

I agree with this, at best we now have a weak government that is incapable of getting a vaguely decent Brexit deal. What we could have had is a strong Labour government which would be better on every level, or a strong and determined opposition. We have neither.