Brexit - the next steps

[Rhiannon]

I'm pro-EU but I don't agree with unlimited migration. But I think the idea of limiting immigration to those earning over a certain very high amount isn't good. I know migration is complex but that's not a fair solution.  Perhaps there should be something akin to a waiting list,  it seems to work quite well for the local allotments?

Erm...

[Nearly Sane]

I'm pro-EU but I don't agree with unlimited migration. But I think the idea of limiting immigration to those earning over a certain very high amount isn't good. I know migration is complex but that's not a fair solution.  Perhaps there should be something akin to a waiting list,  it seems to work quite well for the local allotments?

Except since we also need people to provide their skills that is a specious analogy.

[jeremyp]

MPs in parliament might privately think Brexit was a bad idea but stick to the principle that since they opted to give the country a vote they have to honour the result.

Don't you think that is craven cowardice though? If the MP truly believes Brexit will be a disaster, shouldn't they be doing everything they can to stop it?

A Norway type deal has to get through Parliament, if it doesn't get a majority of Tory MP support that doesn't matter.

It does matter if the dissenters force a leadership election or a general election.

So given the choice would you prefer Norway or Canada +++?

Norway. But if we decide on Norway, don't you agree that it would be better to stay in the EU?

[jakswan]

Don't you think that is craven cowardice though? If the MP truly believes Brexit will be a disaster, shouldn't they be doing everything they can to stop it?

No, for a start I don't think that many MP's think it will be a disaster, the centrists sure, others think it is better to stay than leave but they are like Corbyn, i.e. 7/10. Given a 7/10, ignoring a vote, having given the public a vote in the first place would undermine the entire country.

It does matter if the dissenters force a leadership election or a general election.

I think the time for this has gone, if it was going to happen it would have happened.

Norway. But if we decide on Norway, don't you agree that it would be better to stay in the EU?

No, I want an end to political union, Norway is result I hoped for.

[SteveH]

Open the border and let 'em all in. If Tories, Kippers and BNPers hate it, it must be right.

[jeremyp]

No, for a start I don't think that many MP's think it will be a disaster

That wasn't the point. You were asked to hypothesise a situation in which an MP believes Brexit to be a disaster and answer if that MP is a coward for supporting Brexit.

As a concrete example, in one debate Margaret Beckett said she thought Brexit would be a catastrophe but she would support the party line anyway. Don't you think that is craven cowardice?

No, I want an end to political union, Norway is result I hoped for.

Norway doesn't end political union. It's exactly the same as being in the EU but without any say as to what its rules are. How can that possibly be better than being properly in the EU?

[Sassy]

Wow! I didn't know that. And there was I thinking that we joined the Common Market following a general election called by Edward Heath in which such joining was a stated policy. I have no idea what mind bending substance I must have been on to have imagined something as bizarre as that! Was it co-ordinated by the same  people that produced the fake lunar landings?

Of course, Sass, it may have been you that was taking mind bending substances. Why else would you make up this tripe?

Harrowby, the tone is not necessary. Everyone voted but the ballot papers were not counted regionally. They were sent to London and all counted together. I was too young to vote but I do remember everyone complaining about the way they counted the votes all together in London.

[Sassy]

The days of the Scottish tail being wagged by the Westminster dog are long gone, Sass.
There is seething resentmrnt here - and not just amongst  Nationalists - that, as the late Labour Frirst Minister said "The democratic will of the Scottiah people" is being steamrollered.
This will lead to asecond Indy ref once the burach of Brexit isworked out and we see just how terrible things will be in Scotland.
What you SHOULD worry about, though, is Northern Ireland.

It's all very well saying the majority of the so-called UK voted to leave - the majority in NI - both sides - voted to remain.
That Westminster ignores their wishes and creates a division that the albeit very fragile peace process healed between north and south, should worry you just as much as the problems finding medicines, paying more for your food, etc, will.

There isn't an argument is there. The vote is to exit...The truth is for myself, I like Scotland and the way they support their disabled, no time limit badges for parking and the way they ensure their needs looked after. But if we are both honest and truthful, we know that votes which concern us as a United Kingdom cannot be based on history or personal vendetta. We won't all agree on everything but brexit needs to happen. How planned do you think Gods end is?

[SteveH]

Harrowby, the tone is not necessary. Everyone voted but the ballot papers were not counted regionally. They were sent to London and all counted together. I was too young to vote but I do remember everyone complaining about the way they counted the votes all together in London.

I take it you're talking about the 1975 referendum, in which case you and HH are talking at cross purposes.

[jeremyp]

I take it you're talking about the 1975 referendum, in which case you and HH are talking at cross purposes.

Yes, because we didn't join the Common Market as a result of a referendum. Edward Heath took us in as a manifesto pledge. Harold Wilson then organised the referendum to decide whether we should stay in.

[Nearly Sane]

The votes weren't all  taken to London to be countrd, but the official result in terms of the total votes was announced in London.

[Nearly Sane]

a view from Canada


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-a-self-destructive-madness-grips-the-uk-as-a-no-deal-brexit-looms/

[jakswan]

That wasn't the point. You were asked to hypothesise a situation in which an MP believes Brexit to be a disaster and answer if that MP is a coward for supporting Brexit.

If MP's thought the moon was made of cheese then whatever.

As a concrete example, in one debate Margaret Beckett said she thought Brexit would be a catastrophe but she would support the party line anyway. Don't you think that is craven cowardice?

I presume she voted for the EU Referendum Bill in the first place and feels she has little choice. I don't get what point you are making, you think they are all cowards, I've no interest in changing your opinion.

Norway doesn't end political union. It's exactly the same as being in the EU but without any say as to what its rules are. How can that possibly be better than being properly in the EU?

The rules relating to goods, out of Common Fisheries Policy, Common Agricultural Policy and no ECJ.

It is your most preferred choice.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Budget gives the impression that the Tory party are like the spoilt child forced to invite the dull kids to its birthday party, taking their presents and congratulating itself on grudgingly allowing them garibaldi biscuits and squash while it laid into the vol a vents, jelly and cherryade.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Arron Banks is apparently fishing in Bermuda...……..I wonder if he'll be going to Nicaragua.

[SteveH]

He can go to hell in a handbasket for all I care.

[Rhiannon]

And in today's Brexit is shit...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/05/brexit-metropolitan-police-rush-set-up-no-deal-safety-net-unit

[jeremyp]

Personally, I find it surprising that you need to have a law that says animals feel pain, but we will be getting rid of it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-government-vote-animal-sentience-cant-feel-pain-eu-withdrawal-bill-anti-science-tory-mps-a8065161.html

This is worrying because it paves the way to getting rid of the laws that do actually provide protection for animals and thence for doing away with the laws that protect us.

[wigginhall]

This is laugh/cry territory - in the event of no deal, hauliers would need permits to drive in the EU.   There would not be enough, so there would be a lottery.   Is this stuff for real?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Personally, I find it surprising that you need to have a law that says animals feel pain, but we will be getting rid of it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-government-vote-animal-sentience-cant-feel-pain-eu-withdrawal-bill-anti-science-tory-mps-a8065161.html

This is worrying because it paves the way to getting rid of the laws that do actually provide protection for animals and thence for ing away with the laws that protect us.

Really?...…...I wonder if Dawkins and his little wizards realised the dangers of casually bandying stuff about glorified chimpanzees and glorified apes.

[Sebastian Toe]

Really?...…...I wonder if Dawkins and his little wizards realised the dangers of casually bandying stuff about glorified chimpanzees and glorified apes.

Why don't you ask him yourself?
Or has your stalking ban not expired? 

[jeremyp]

A new poll on Brexit has Remain leading by eight points

https://www.channel4.com/news/major-new-brexit-poll-shows-voters-swinging-towards-remain

The democracy argument is wearing a bit thin.

[jakswan]

A new poll on Brexit has Remain leading by eight points

https://www.channel4.com/news/major-new-brexit-poll-shows-voters-swinging-towards-remain

The democracy argument is wearing a bit thin.

Be sure to lets us know when someone makes that argument?

[Sebastian Toe]

Be sure to lets us know when someone makes that argument?

This one?

British Prime Minister Theresa May has categorically ruled out a second Brexit referendum, saying it would be a "gross betrayal" of democracy and trust.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-rules-out-another-brexit-referendum-2018-9

[jeremyp]

Be sure to lets us know when someone makes that argument?

That's a joke right?