Author Topic: Brexit - the next steps  (Read 417893 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2850 on: December 05, 2018, 10:05:15 AM »
It will be seen as 'give peoples vote version 1, get wrong answer, give peoples vote version 2'. Come off it it has nothing to do with democracy, its been the only gig in town by remainiacs since they lost the last one.[/quote]How is it not democratic to give the people of the UK the final say in the most important decision facing the UK, frankly in my lifetime - certainly in my voting lifetime. The notion that it isn't democratic to have a democratic vote is as wide of the mark (albeit in the opposite direction)as the old East Germany describing itself as the DDR (the second D being democratic) when it wasn't a democracy.

There will be outrage if there is another vote, it will be total carnage, the country will be more divided and that division will get worse regardless of who wins.
There will be outrage just as much if the government forces through an option without clarity that it has a direct mandate for that choice, particularly as parliament is hopelessly split.

You would put no deal on a ballot paper? Wow.
If I am talking a non partial view, on fairness, then yes I would - no deal is the last thing I want, but it is a deliverable option and some people do want it. If I was being partial then sure I wouldn't want it on the ballot paper, but that isn't what I said when first suggesting it previously. If you believe in democracy then you have to accept that voters need to have the option to vote for something that you might, yourself, not want.

I think if others took a step back from their partisan view (I mean you Jakswan) they too would recognise that the only appropriate and democratic way out of this mess is a vote of the UK electorate on the final deal, with the other 2 deliverable options also on the ballot paper.

jakswan

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2851 on: December 05, 2018, 10:17:27 AM »
You mean like this

 'Come off it it has nothing to do with democracy, its been the only gig in town by remainiacs since they lost the last one.'

It is a description of a person holding extreme view of Brexit, it is not flattering I'll grant you.

Whilst I accept my views on this site are something of a minority, to put it mildly, I do think I offer posts that are more substantive than that of 'this lot are twits'.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2852 on: December 05, 2018, 10:19:18 AM »
It is a description of a person holding extreme view of Brexit, it is not flattering I'll grant you.

Whilst I accept my views on this site are something of a minority, to put it mildly, I do think I offer posts that are more substantive than that of 'this lot are twits'.
No, it's an insult, and you are being hypocritical.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2853 on: December 05, 2018, 10:24:54 AM »
Quote
It is a description of a person holding extreme view of Brexit, it is not flattering I'll grant you.

So 48% or thereabouts hold extreme views, eh?

You seem to be indulging in the very same behaviour that you accuse LR of being guilty of.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

jakswan

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2854 on: December 05, 2018, 10:34:44 AM »
How is it not democratic to give the people of the UK the final say in the most important decision facing the UK, frankly in my lifetime - certainly in my voting lifetime. The notion that it isn't democratic to have a democratic vote is as wide of the mark (albeit in the opposite direction)as the old East Germany describing itself as the DDR (the second D being democratic) when it wasn't a democracy.

I've explained this, there will be a view that Parliament gave the people a referendum and when it got the answer they didn't want, waited and asked the same question again. Which makes a farce of the whole thing.

Quote
 
There will be outrage just as much if the government forces through an option without clarity that it has a direct mandate for that choice, particularly as parliament is hopelessly split.

Parliament has the mandate since they were all elected with both major parties being for Brexit.
 
Quote
If I am talking a non partial view, on fairness, then yes I would - no deal is the last thing I want, but it is a deliverable option and some people do want it. If I was being partial then sure I wouldn't want it on the ballot paper, but that isn't what I said when first suggesting it previously. If you believe in democracy then you have to accept that voters need to have the option to vote for something that you might, yourself, not want.

So with outrage in the country with great swathes of people angered by the establishment, you want that button to be presented.

Quote
I think if others took a step back from their partisan view (I mean you Jakswan) they too would recognise that the only appropriate and democratic way out of this mess is a vote of the UK electorate on the final deal, with the other 2 deliverable options also on the ballot paper.

I have always thought Norway was the best option, I now think it is the only option. Another vote would be a disaster. We are in this position because of the rise of UKIP lets remember that, they are not the extreme right but clearly have some highly unsavoury members in their number.

I'm liberal right of centre politically another vote with remain winning will bring UKIP or something worse back into UK politics.

So we would have the hard left in control of the left and the centre-right being crowded out by the hard right.

The centre need to win and the only way to do that is by being pragmatic and compromising having accepted the result of 2016 referendum. 
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2855 on: December 05, 2018, 10:37:11 AM »
I've explained this, there will be a view that Parliament gave the people a referendum and when it got the answer they didn't want, waited and asked the same question again. Which makes a farce of the whole thing.
How on earth could it be construed as asking the same question again. It demonstrably wouldn't be as there would be 3 options to choose from.

Roses

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2856 on: December 05, 2018, 10:38:04 AM »
So the majority of those that voted were gullible twits, is this going to be good tactic to change peoples minds do you think?

Toxic name calling replaces political debate sad state of affairs.

I think the posts of NS and TV sum up your comments well.
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jakswan

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2857 on: December 05, 2018, 10:38:26 AM »
No, it's an insult, and you are being hypocritical.

It has a descriptive element to it that is also insulting.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

jakswan

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2858 on: December 05, 2018, 10:44:29 AM »
So 48% or thereabouts hold extreme views, eh?

You seem to be indulging in the very same behaviour that you accuse LR of being guilty of.

No.

Here are some of the views on Brexit, first and last are the extremes.

No Deal Brexit - Some Other Deal - May's Deal - Norway Deal - Referendum & No Brexit.

Not everyone who voted remain is campaigning for another referendum.

Having extreme views isn't insulting I have extreme views on many issues, I'm extremely liberal when it comes to drugs and extremely authoritarian when it comes to animal cruelty punishments. 
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2859 on: December 05, 2018, 10:45:45 AM »
It has a descriptive element to it that is also insulting.
As does 'gullible twits'. If you don't want name calling, then don't name call.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2860 on: December 05, 2018, 10:47:46 AM »
No.

Here are some of the views on Brexit, first and last are the extremes.

No Deal Brexit - Some Other Deal - May's Deal - Norway Deal - Referendum & No Brexit.

Not everyone who voted remain is campaigning for another referendum.

Having extreme views isn't insulting I have extreme views on many issues, I'm extremely liberal when it comes to drugs and extremely authoritarian when it comes to animal cruelty punishments.

Well I'm not campaigning for another referendum but I still think we should remain. Am I a full on remainiac or only a semi-remainiac?

Just trying to understand your hierarchy of insults.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2861 on: December 05, 2018, 10:51:28 AM »
Here are some of the views on Brexit, first and last are the extremes.

No Deal Brexit - Some Other Deal - May's Deal - Norway Deal - Referendum & No Brexit.
How on earth is no brexit an extreme view - 48% of people held that view in 2016 (and perhaps more do now). And that was when they were very clear what remain meant, and it means exactly the same now.

No deal is an extreme view, that pretty well no-one was suggesting as an option in 2016.

But the point is that we cannot simply consider the UK's position as if we sit in perfect isolation. Any deal cannot be determined unilaterally, it requires agreement of both the UK and the EU - so of your 5 positions (the referendum isn't an outcome, but a mechanism) there are only 3 on the table - no deal, May's deal (agreed by the EU), and remain. No other options exist. And if we are to learn anything from 2016 it is that we should only be considering real and deliverable options, not fantasy cake and eat it, hypothetical options that aren't on the table and aren't deliverable.

jakswan

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2862 on: December 05, 2018, 11:06:48 AM »
As does 'gullible twits'. If you don't want name calling, then don't name call.

What political position does gullible twits describe.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

jakswan

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2863 on: December 05, 2018, 11:10:36 AM »
Well I'm not campaigning for another referendum but I still think we should remain. Am I a full on remainiac or only a semi-remainiac?

Just trying to understand your hierarchy of insults.

I'll be sure to deploy the correct description of your position when I better understand it. You might find the description insulting.

So you want to remain but are not campaigning for remain?
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2864 on: December 05, 2018, 11:12:28 AM »
What political position does gullible twits describe.
You said 'remainiacs' had a 'descriptive element' to it. I replied that 'gullible twits' did as well. Why are you asking a different question?

Roses

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2865 on: December 05, 2018, 11:12:44 AM »
What political position does gullible twits describe.


Those who wish to pull up the drawbridge leave the EU and have tiny little Britain standing all alone. :o
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SteveH

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2866 on: December 05, 2018, 11:26:56 AM »
Well I'm not campaigning for another referendum but I still think we should remain. Am I a full on remainiac or only a semi-remainiac?

Just trying to understand your hierarchy of insults.
You're a remoderate. I'm a remainiac, and proud of it.
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Gordon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2867 on: December 05, 2018, 11:43:34 AM »
The limpet-like reliance of some on the 2016 result seems flawed to me, since even if the reasons for calling it (Tory party factionalism) are ignored it seems reasonable to conclude that since those supporting 'Leave' back then had no information of what would be entailed then 'Leave' was at best an uninformed opinion in the absence of relevant information - that there is now enough flesh on the bones that may cause some to change their minds is a factor that cannot be ignored. Most of us I'm sure have decided 'x' in principle in our personal lives but have then found reasons to change our mind when more information became available: 'I'd love to buy that Jag, and can afford the purchase price, but on looking at other aspects it would cost me too much to insure and run it'.

The current Brexit is, for me, toxic, and another referendum could be even more toxic even if it is reasonable to ask the electorate what they now think in light of the information currently available to them. So, it would be better in my view to just abandon the current process (if the Article 50 ECJ advice is confirmed) and approach it again, if there is still any appetite for it that is, via a GE campaign that addresses in the various manifestos what is now known about the practicalities of exiting the EU.   

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2868 on: December 05, 2018, 11:52:44 AM »
Most of us I'm sure have decided 'x' in principle in our personal lives but have then found reasons to change our mind when more information became available: 'I'd love to buy that Jag, and can afford the purchase price, but on looking at other aspects it would cost me too much to insure and run it'.
Indeed the notion that you cannot change your mind is bonkers - more so when the original 2016 referendum was based on such limited information about what an actual brexit deal would be like.

Here is an interesting (and sobering for brexiteers) link - check out the graph - yougov have been asking exactly the same question over the period since the referendum, namely:

'In hindsight, do you think Britain was rich or wrong to vote to leave the EU'

Just look at the trend - back in 2016 the poll results closely reflect the referendum, with a small majority for 'right' - since then a steady shift (accelerating recently) toward people thinking it was 'wrong'.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/12/05/latest-yougov-tracker-finds-the-brexit-wrong-lead-over-right-in-double-figures-at-record-level/

Spud

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2869 on: December 05, 2018, 11:54:02 AM »
The three options on the second referendum should be

No Brexit

The Deal

Economic disaster
Assuming by 'economic disaster' you mean leave without a deal.
That makes two options for leave voters and one for remain. There probably ought to be only one leave option, as two options would split the Brexit voters and thus give remainers an advantage.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2870 on: December 05, 2018, 12:09:15 PM »
Assuming by 'economic disaster' you mean leave without a deal.
That makes two options for leave voters and one for remain. There probably ought to be only one leave option, as two options would split the Brexit voters and thus give remainers an advantage.
You'd need to use an AV type approach - or have a primary question (e.g/ do you support the deal - yes/no), followed by a secondary question (which of course only becomes relevant if the answer to the first question is one way, in this case 'no') which would be - if the deal if rejected would you wish to leave with no deal or remain.

jakswan

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2871 on: December 05, 2018, 12:25:26 PM »
You said 'remainiacs' had a 'descriptive element' to it. I replied that 'gullible twits' did as well. Why are you asking a different question?

Politically descriptive, i have no issue with insults in political debate. I have issue when there are only insults.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

jakswan

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2872 on: December 05, 2018, 12:28:03 PM »
How on earth could it be construed as asking the same question again. It demonstrably wouldn't be as there would be 3 options to choose from.

That the establishment conspired to block and to stop Brexit, no amount of spin is going to change the view by many that this is a stitch up.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2873 on: December 05, 2018, 12:31:08 PM »
That the establishment conspired to block and to stop Brexit, no amount of spin is going to change the view by many that this is a stitch up.
What, by giving the people the choice to make the final decision - how is that conspiring to block!?!

If parliament stopped brexit without a referendum, you'd have a point but if brexit didn't happen down to the will of the people expressed via a referendum, how on earth could that be construed as the 'establishment blocking it'.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #2874 on: December 05, 2018, 12:34:09 PM »
Politically descriptive, i have no issue with insults in political debate. I have issue when there are only insults.
Surely all insults are just 'toxic name calling'?