Brexit - the next steps

[Gordon]

There is no deal on the table, there is only a transitional arrangement. There is no way politicians are going to be able to do what you say, it has to reversed by a referendum.

So you would have to have another vote and ask exactly the same question as last time but make people aware that the options would EFTA or Free trade trade but you wouldn't know which one, but everyone was aware of that last time.

So Scotland will have same way to go to become independent?

For about the 50th time, Lab, LibDems, Tories all voted for the referendum, oh and since you rate the indyref1 as something of a mess why ever trust the SNP again?

Then it seems the whole approach to Brexit, from the reasons for allowing the referendum (internal Tory politics) and the delivery of the unexpected result, has been a shambolic mess - and the best approach would be to draw a line under this mess and either treat is as something not deliverable or devise a different strategy (if there is any appetite left).

I think that Indyref2, if it happens, needs to learn lessons for the current Brexit debacle. Oh, and I didn't trust the Tories long before they stumbled into Brexit. 

[jakswan]

Then it seems the whole approach to Brexit, from the reasons for allowing the referendum (internal Tory politics) and the delivery of the unexpected result, has been a shambolic mess - and the best approach would be to draw a line under this mess and either treat is as something not deliverable or devise a different strategy (if there is any appetite left).

As I've explained to you several times this is impossible for politicians to do. As I've also explained to you several times the referendum was not due to Tory politics since three of the main parties all voted for it. If I offer a refutation on one of your positions it would be courteous if you'd acknowledge it.

I think that Indyref2, if it happens, needs to learn lessons for the current Brexit debacle.

So no indyref2 then.

Oh, and I didn't trust the Tories long before they stumbled into Brexit.

Yes I can guess where your prejudice comes from.

[Aruntraveller]

Yes I can guess where your prejudice comes from

Why prejudice?

the definition of which is this:

preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

I can't speak for Gordon but for myself I have plenty of actual experiences where my opinion is based on fact.

As a completely arbitrary example the fact that the government allows infrastructure expenditure to be 6 times more per head of the population in the capital than in other areas. Grossly unfair, actual experience.

Another example, the Windrush generation.

These are actual reasons and experience.

So not prejudice.

[jeremyp]

The vote to stay or leave has taken place and in this the people voted, and the result was to leave.

No. The result of the original vote was "remain". You cannot argue that the 2016 vote is "once and for all" because it was already the second vote.

The current government stood on a manifesto that stated they would leave both the single market and customs union. If there is another vote it can only be on the terms of leaving, as in deal or no deal.

I'm not opposed to the current government resigning or being booted out because it cannot or will not deliver on its manifesto.

Reneging, call it "more democracy" or whatever you wish, will cause untold damage lasting longer than any economic hit.

That's a nice little country you have got there. Shame if it met with a little "accident".

I voted remain but I believe a vote is a vote. It is what I grew up with and it has always been most votes take it. If there is "more democracy" I would most definately vote leave.

Circumstances change. People change. Democracy is not having one vote (well two votes) and then washing your hands. Democracy is government by the people. That mean an ongoing consultation with the people to find out what they think. This is implicitly recognised in this country by the fact that we didn't have one general election and then decide that any future general elections would be a betrayal of the people and likely result in violence.

[Gordon]

As I've explained to you several times this is impossible for politicians to do. As I've also explained to you several times the referendum was not due to Tory politics since three of the main parties all voted for it. If I offer a refutation on one of your positions it would be courteous if you'd acknowledge it.

Oh I think the referendum was entirely due to Tory politics, and it had been a thorn in the side of Tory politics since at least the days of John Major as PM (who referred to the likes of Cash as 'bastards').

So no indyref2 then.

Hopefully there will be, in due course, and with lessons learned from the current fiasco.

Yes I can guess where your prejudice comes from.

Yep - from previous and current Tory involvement in Scotland.

[jeremyp]

I warn you it will be messy, it is more uncertainty and prolongs the division

It's already messy.

[jeremyp]

No, its
1. We vote to join - we join

Nope. We joined without a referendum. The democratically elected government of the day took us in. I expect it was in their manifesto. The first referendum was a remain/leave vote. 

[Gordon]

Just heard on Radio 4 that the ECJ say the UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50: so there is a quick way to at least stop Brexit and remove the 'no deal' risk without another referendum, and stop the current shambles.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46481643

[Roses]

Just heard on Radio 4 that the ECJ say the UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50: so there is a quick way to at least stop Brexit and remove the 'no deal' risk without another referendum, and stop the current shambles.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46481643

Hopefully good sense will prevail, but I am not holding my breath.

[jakswan]

On train currently but just read on Times May planning another referendum.

Remain not an option!

[Gordon]

On train currently but just read on Times May planning another referendum.

Remain not an option!

Can't think how she'd get away with that, given that the ECJ say remain is an option and the recent amendment passed in Westminster does (I think) allow MPs to say what options should be considered. Can't imagine that the likes of Vince Cable won't raise the rescinding Article 50 option.

Was listening to a radio interview earlier where a commentator (not sure who) was observing that several polls now show that the public may well have changed their minds re. Brexit.

[ProfessorDavey]

On train currently but just read on Times May planning another referendum.

Remain not an option!

Read the Times this morning - didn't see that.

Anyhow I though the plan was to ensure no deal wouldn't be on any ballot paper - so are we going to have a referendum with only a single choice!?!

[jakswan]

Hope this works.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/09/theresa-mays-plan-b-could-see-second-referendum-does-not-include/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1544396848

[SteveH]

Hope this works.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/09/theresa-mays-plan-b-could-see-second-referendum-does-not-include/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1544396848

If there was such a referendum, I'd spoil my ballot paper by witing in the option "Remain in the EU" and putting my cross against it.

[ProfessorDavey]

Hope this works.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/09/theresa-mays-plan-b-could-see-second-referendum-does-not-include/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1544396848

Thanks - that's the Telegraph not the Times.

Problem with that approach is that it is likely that Benn's amendment will rule out no deal, so how could you have a referendum that doesn't include 2 out of the 3 deliverable options.

What I had heard was that there would be a 2 question referendum - the first question being leave vs remain, the second (if leave wins) deal vs no deal. However that wouldn't work if parliament has vetoed no deal.

[Gordon]

Reports on the BBC that the vote tomorrow is postponed: May to make statement at 3.30.

If she says she is going back to negotiate then, presumably, her best deal that she recommended could be better! If she has any sense she'll take the Article 50 route out and let Brexit be an issue for the next GE campaign.

[Nearly Sane]

Boris as Aslan and by extension Jesus.


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-compared-aslan-brazen-13708872

[wigginhall]

I suppose cancelling the vote helps avoid alternatives being discussed in the Commons.   The smack of firm government!!

[Nearly Sane]

I suppose it is panto season. Problem is politics feels like it is always panto season and never Christmas.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Alright for May to ask for honesty from those who oppose her.How about some from her.....how are preparations going for a no deal Brexit, Mrs May.

[Spud]

A 52/48 result would be ok in a scenario like the General Election, where you have a divided electorate but there is the chance to change in the next election. For this current situation a much more clear majority would mean we could go ahead with whichever option won without the strife we currently have. So we should hold another referendum in the hope that there is a large majority for leave or remain.

The only thing that can unite the country is a large majority.

[Nearly Sane]

A 52/48 result would be ok in a scenario like the General Election, where you have a divided electorate but there is the chance to change in the next election. For this current situation a much more clear majority would mean we could go ahead with whichever option won without the strife we currently have. So we should hold another referendum in the hope that there is a large majority for leave or remain.

The only thing that can unite the country is a large majority.

Or Aslan

[Anchorman]

A 52/48 result would be ok in a scenario like the General Election, where you have a divided electorate but there is the chance to change in the next election. For this current situation a much more clear majority would mean we could go ahead with whichever option won without the strife we currently have. So we should hold another referendum in the hope that there is a large majority for leave or remain. The only thing that can unite the country is a large majority.

What 'country'? Scotland voted - by a large majority - to remain, Spud. Any other result will not unite the 'UK'

[jeremyp]

Hope this works.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/09/theresa-mays-plan-b-could-see-second-referendum-does-not-include/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1544396848

Assuming there is a third referendum, why are you so intent on preventing the option that a significant proportion of the electorate (possibly more than half) want being on it...

... oh wait, silly me. It's not the outcome that you personally want.

[jeremyp]

I suppose cancelling the vote helps avoid alternatives being discussed in the Commons.   The smack of firm government!!

There's no point in having a vote which will certainly be defeated. May is doing the right thing by postponing the vote. What she does next will be interesting.