Author Topic: Brexit - the next steps (Read 418923 times)

jeremyp · « **Reply #3100 on:** December 10, 2018, 07:07:08 PM »

Quote from: Anchorman on December 10, 2018, 06:58:07 PM

What 'country'?

The United Kingdom.

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Scotland voted - by a large majority - to remain,

No it didn't. Regions of the UK did not vote at all. People in the UK voted individually. The votes were counted by region to make the task manageable.

Also, about 40% of the people in Scotland who voted voted Leave. So Scotland is divided, it's just the proportion that is different.

Spud · « **Reply #3101 on:** December 10, 2018, 09:56:59 PM »

Quote from: Nearly Sane on December 10, 2018, 06:26:58 PM

Or Aslan

Very good point.

Anchorman · « **Reply #3102 on:** December 10, 2018, 10:47:16 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on December 10, 2018, 07:07:08 PM

The United Kingdom.
No it didn't. Regions of the UK did not vote at all. People in the UK voted individually. The votes were counted by region to make the task manageable.

Also, about 40% of the people in Scotland who voted voted Leave. So Scotland is divided, it's just the proportion that is different.

Do you seriously think the majority of Scots will lie down whilst a shower of Tories drags their nation out of a union for which they voted?
The Scots Parliament - not only SNP - voted last year for asecond Independence referendum. In 2014, we were promised that the nly way to remain part of the EU was to be part of the UK....and see where that got us.
Should we be forced into a no deal brexit by a government Scotland rejected, we must enact Parliament's wishes.

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #3103 on:** December 11, 2018, 08:21:51 AM »

When are labour going to learn.......the Tories can fuck the country up and stay in power but if an obscure labour politician grabs the mace then that's them out of power for years....

Seriously though it's because the country likes being screwed by posh boys.

jakswan · « **Reply #3104 on:** December 11, 2018, 10:02:33 AM »

Quote from: jeremyp on December 10, 2018, 06:59:38 PM

Assuming there is a third referendum, why are you so intent on preventing the option that a significant proportion of the electorate (possibly more than half) want being on it...

... oh wait, silly me. It's not the outcome that you personally want.

My hope this works was hoping the link would work.

May could offer a referendum on the nature of future relationship, e.g. Free Trade or EFTA.

Not sure that would be a good idea. I'm actually reaching the conclusion that Parliament isn't fit for purpose and another election with very clear manifestos on what to do on EU (no more Labour waffle), any MP that can't fully support their manifesto is not allowed to stand.

ProfessorDavey · « **Reply #3105 on:** December 11, 2018, 10:09:46 AM »

Quote from: jakswan on December 11, 2018, 10:02:33 AM

May could offer a referendum on the nature of future relationship, e.g. Free Trade or EFTA.

She'd never get that through Parliament - only a referendum with remain as an option could be supported in parliament. And she couldn't offer a referendum with EFTA as an option as that is demonstrably undeliverable by the government (nor in the gift of the EU). Membership of EFTA is in the gift of Norway, Iceland, Leichenstein and Switzerland.

ProfessorDavey · « **Reply #3106 on:** December 11, 2018, 11:01:49 AM »

Some interesting polling stuff here

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2018/12/what-should-happen-next-what-really-matters-and-how-bad-is-this-crisis-my-new-brexit-deal-poll/

Sassy · « **Reply #3107 on:** December 11, 2018, 11:45:42 AM »

Brexit- The Government has made it clear that it will happen.
This has to stand. Delaying any agreement is not helping and will not get us to out of it happening.

Seems to me that some people believe a vote can be changed but the truth is being out of the EU is better for us. Taking back control of our borders and who we can trade with,

Sometimes the people need to remember that the few does not out weigh the many when democracy is has already done it's job.

I am for brexit because I think it is best for us as a country. The EU might want to make an example and I am sure some countries only entered because we were in it.
But if we brexit then hopefully others will have the courage to do so. You see holding anyone to ransom is not good. If more countries followed we would all be better off.

British people can still travel anywhere in the world whether in or out of the union. We make up a lot of the tourist visitors in Spain and other parts of Europe. We have paid through the eyes and nose to keep other countries in during financial hardship. The EU should have prospered us, not left us fiancially securing other poorer countries.

Brexit it is the only way forward for this country. IMHO.

Roses · « **Reply #3108 on:** December 11, 2018, 12:05:46 PM »

Those who support this crazy Brexit notion will be soon be complaining when all the prices go up, and the NHS has its staff even more depleted than it is now.

jakswan · « **Reply #3109 on:** December 11, 2018, 01:50:30 PM »

Quote from: ProfessorDavey on December 11, 2018, 10:09:46 AM

She'd never get that through Parliament - only a referendum with remain as an option could be supported in parliament. And she couldn't offer a referendum with EFTA as an option as that is demonstrably undeliverable by the government (nor in the gift of the EU). Membership of EFTA is in the gift of Norway, Iceland, Leichenstein and Switzerland.

Think you will find your maths are wrong.

FTA gets support from extreme Brexiteers, Norway supported by centrist leavers and remainers who now accept first referendum result.

Post 2nd referendum no one can claim to be betrayed because they have have the option to stay/leave and nature of their leaving.

Perhaps we can get Scotland to vote leave in indyref2 so we can off load them during the process.

ProfessorDavey · « **Reply #3110 on:** December 11, 2018, 02:33:19 PM »

Quote from: jakswan on December 11, 2018, 01:50:30 PM

Think you will find your maths are wrong.

FTA gets support from extreme Brexiteers, Norway supported by centrist leavers and remainers who now accept first referendum result.

Post 2nd referendum no one can claim to be betrayed because they have have the option to stay/leave and nature of their leaving.

We weren't talking about support for a particular stance, but support for a referendum with varying options. MPs may reject a referendum, but if they support one they will ensure that remain is on the ballot paper - why, because a majority of MPs support remain and all the polls suggest remain is the most popular of the 3 possibilities in a plurality vote (although might be beaten in a straight choice or AV type referendum).

According to the latest Ashcroft polling the most popular way forward is a referendum with remain vs May's deal - after that a 3-way referendum. A referendum without remain on the ballot paper didn't come in the top 3 for all voters (or for 2016 remain or leave voters).

A referendum without remain on the ballot paper pleases no-one and wont be supported by parliament.

Roses · « **Reply #3111 on:** December 11, 2018, 02:49:53 PM »

Quote from: ProfessorDavey on December 11, 2018, 02:33:19 PM

We weren't talking about support for a particular stance, but support for a referendum with varying options. MPs may reject a referendum, but if they support one they will ensure that remain is on the ballot paper - why, because a majority of MPs support remain and all the polls suggest remain is the most popular of the 3 possibilities in a plurality vote (although might be beaten in a straight choice or AV type referendum).

According to the latest Ashcroft polling the most popular way forward is a referendum with remain vs May's deal - after that a 3-way referendum. A referendum without remain on the ballot paper didn't come in the top 3 for all voters (or for 2016 remain or leave voters).

A referendum without remain on the ballot paper pleases no-one and wont be supported by parliament.

Agreed. I do hope the UK gets another chance to vote on whether to remain or leave the EU, now the issues surrounding Brexit are much clearer.

jakswan · « **Reply #3112 on:** December 11, 2018, 03:35:30 PM »

Quote from: ProfessorDavey on December 11, 2018, 02:33:19 PM

We weren't talking about support for a particular stance, but support for a referendum with varying options. MPs may reject a referendum, but if they support one they will ensure that remain is on the ballot paper - why, because a majority of MPs support remain and all the polls suggest remain is the most popular of the 3 possibilities in a plurality vote (although might be beaten in a straight choice or AV type referendum).

I agree majority of MPs do not support a referendum with remain as an option, they most most often say they do not support it as it will potentially be seen as a betrayal of the first, at least in the interviews I've watched. I've not seen the questions posed to MP's where they have been asked about another referendum where remain is not an option.

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According to the latest Ashcroft polling the most popular way forward is a referendum with remain vs May's deal - after that a 3-way referendum. A referendum without remain on the ballot paper didn't come in the top 3 for all voters (or for 2016 remain or leave voters).

May's transitional agreement? You still don't know the destination.

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A referendum without remain on the ballot paper pleases no-one and wont be supported by parliament.

The opposition to Losers Vote is that which I've outlined earlier, where remain is not an option that opposition fails, what other arguement against it is there?

Nearly Sane · « **Reply #3113 on:** December 11, 2018, 06:52:43 PM »

The attitude to Ireland throughout the negotiations has been ignorant in both main senses.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46528952

jeremyp · « **Reply #3114 on:** December 11, 2018, 07:24:08 PM »

Quote from: Anchorman on December 10, 2018, 10:47:16 PM

Do you seriously think the majority of Scots will lie down whilst a shower of Tories drags their nation out of a union for which they voted?
The Scots Parliament - not only SNP - voted last year for asecond Independence referendum. In 2014, we were promised that the nly way to remain part of the EU was to be part of the UK....and see where that got us.
Should we be forced into a no deal brexit by a government Scotland rejected, we must enact Parliament's wishes.

Your ire does not alter the fact that it was not Scotland that voted in the Brexit referendum but the people of the UK including those that are on Scottish electoral rolls.

Yes, you've been kicked in the teeth by Brexit, but so have we all.

jeremyp · « **Reply #3115 on:** December 11, 2018, 07:25:32 PM »

Quote from: jakswan on December 11, 2018, 10:02:33 AM

My hope this works was hoping the link would work.

May could offer a referendum on the nature of future relationship, e.g. Free Trade or EFTA.

Or stay in the EU.

Quote

Not sure that would be a good idea. I'm actually reaching the conclusion that Parliament isn't fit for purpose and another election with very clear manifestos on what to do on EU (no more Labour waffle), any MP that can't fully support their manifesto is not allowed to stand.

Well we agree on that at least.

jakswan · « **Reply #3116 on:** December 11, 2018, 07:42:00 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on December 11, 2018, 07:25:32 PM

Or stay in the EU.
Well we agree on that at least.

You want an election?

Labour will likely bring you Norway type deal at best, you just as well go no deal because they would bankrupt the country.

Tories Brexit.

Libdems another vote.

jeremyp · « **Reply #3117 on:** December 11, 2018, 07:51:46 PM »

Quote from: Sassy on December 11, 2018, 11:45:42 AM

Brexit- The Government has made it clear that it will happen.

The government is not in any position to make clear what will happen. It can’t get the deal agreed with the EU through parliament.

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This has to stand.

Reality trumps ideology.

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Seems to me that some people believe a vote can be changed

Because it can. Otherwise all the general elections since the first couldn’t have happened, nor could the referendum in 2016.

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but the truth is being out of the EU is better for us. Taking back control of our borders and who we can trade with,

Wrong.

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Sometimes the people need to remember that the few does not out weigh the many when democracy is has already done it's job.

And some polls are saying that the Brexiteers are now true few.

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British people can still travel anywhere in the world whether in or out of the union. We make up a lot of the tourist visitors in Spain and other parts of Europe.

It’s not about tourism, it’s about living and working where we want.

Quote

We have paid through the eyes and nose to keep other countries in during financial hardship. The EU should have prospered us, not left us fiancially securing other poorer countries.

Britain is a rich country. It is to ours benefit to help countries that are less rich than us. Where’s your Christian charity?

Quote

Brexit it is the only way forward for this country. IMHO.

No it’s a way backwards. The only way forward is in partnership with our European allies.

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #3118 on:** December 12, 2018, 07:53:41 AM »

Boris is a coming in
Loudly sing cuckoo...

Roses · « **Reply #3119 on:** December 12, 2018, 08:35:46 AM »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

The no confidence vote in May is being held today! WHAT A MESS.

Aruntraveller · « **Reply #3120 on:** December 12, 2018, 09:14:15 AM »

Through the Looking Glass - Carroll

Mirror Universe - Star Trek

UK Government - Tory Party

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #3121 on:** December 12, 2018, 10:25:50 AM »

Aren't you just glad that Ed Milliband didn't get into power!

Anchorman · « **Reply #3122 on:** December 12, 2018, 10:30:26 AM »

Does it matter which particular lunatic is in charge of the asylum?

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #3123 on:** December 12, 2018, 01:04:07 PM »

May a hard brexitter.

Harrowby Hall · « **Reply #3124 on:** December 12, 2018, 02:10:48 PM »

Quote from: Phyllis Tyne on December 12, 2018, 01:04:07 PM

May a hard brexitter.

Really, Vlad?

As someone (can't remember who) said on The World at One a few minutes ago, May is now receiving the inevitable reward for sucking up to the ERG for the last couple of years - they are kicking her in the May equivalent of the nuts. Will she learn anything from this?

The consensus appears to be that she will survive this no confidence vote - though possibly not choose to remain as party leader for the next election.

News:

Author Topic: Brexit - the next steps (Read 418923 times)