Brexit - the next steps

[jakswan]

So what: the dominant party in Scotland is not one of those three, so there are other political views available.

You said 'mainly to do with internal Tory politics' it was not, it was due to the entire political establishment being scared of the rise of UKIP, they won the 2014 EU election, they got more votes than any other party.

The current process is a clusterfuck of the first magnitude because those advancing it and supporting it still don't know, over 2 years after the vote, and a few months before a critical date, what will actually happen and whether or not the government can survive should their plans be voted down in Westminster.

Their plans are being made into a clusterfuck because Parliament is doing everything it can to not leave.

Seems to me that irrespective of views for or against Brexit the current situation is a toxic and shambolic mess that should be put out of its misery while there is still time to do so.

Made toxic but three sides, remain, leave with deal, leave with no deal, it is a three way split. If you want to end the mess tell remain to vote for May's deal, that will end the mess, they should stand down since remain lost.

[Gordon]

You said 'mainly to do with internal Tory politics' it was not, it was due to the entire political establishment being scared of the rise of UKIP, they won the 2014 EU election, they got more votes than any other party.

Not in Scotland: here they came 4th, partly due to the Lib-Dems doing badly (as punishment for getting into bed with the Tories), though sadly that was enough votes for them to get them one seat thanks to the PR method used (the odious Coburn, who has since left UKIP). UKIP were more of a threat in England & Wales than they ever were here in Scotland.

Their plans are being made into a clusterfuck because Parliament is doing everything it can to not leave.

I think the whole thing has been a mess from the outset, possibly because the result was unexpected, where even 2 plus years later those advocating it are still arguing among themselves. As such, and looking at the ongoing shambles, as I see no surprise that some are looking askance at how anyone could still think Brexit was a good idea.   

Made toxic but three sides, remain, leave with deal, leave with no deal, it is a three way split. If you want to end the mess tell remain to vote for May's deal, that will end the mess, they should stand down since remain lost.

May's deal looks doomed as things stand, where even sufficient numbers in her own party will vote against it so that it fails. Looking at the general chaos I'd  say the best option would be to just pull the plug on this now that there is the Article 50 option. If May's deal can't get approval and parliament decide against revoking Article 50 then a 2nd referendum seems essential, and I think the options are Remain, May's Deal and No Deal -  and unlike last time make the result binding on Parliament, which should help concentrate the minds of the electorate.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

May is a hard brexitter at heart as was David Cameron both of whom designed Brexit to bring us where we are.

I don't know about breaking faith with the people......52 percent ain't the people......but I'm seriously looking at breaking faith with Jezzer who has no game it seems.

I wonder if Nicola can call a conclusion.

[Aruntraveller]

May is a hard brexitter at heart as was David Cameron both of whom designed Brexit to bring us where we are.

Oh come off it. At a stretch May is a very soft Brexiter. Cameron never was. He called the referendum for self serving motives regarding his party. It backfired spectacularly. I suspect neither of them wanted nor anticipated this absolute mess.

[jakswan]

Not in Scotland: here they came 4th, partly due to the Lib-Dems doing badly (as punishment for getting into bed with the Tories), though sadly that was enough votes for them to get them one seat thanks to the PR method used (the odious Coburn, who has since left UKIP). UKIP were more of a threat in England & Wales than they ever were here in Scotland.

Since Scotland voted to remain part of UK they are affected by UK politics.
 

I think the whole thing has been a mess from the outset, possibly because the result was unexpected, where even 2 plus years later those advocating it are still arguing among themselves. As such, and looking at the ongoing shambles, as I see no surprise that some are looking askance at how anyone could still think Brexit was a good idea.   

The mess is caused by things being blocked in Parliament, where a majority of MPs are remain.

May's deal looks doomed as things stand, where even sufficient numbers in her own party will vote against it so that it fails. Looking at the general chaos I'd  say the best option would be to just pull the plug on this now that there is the Article 50 option.

Again what you regard as best option is mostly irrelevant.

If May's deal can't get approval and parliament decide against revoking Article 50 then a 2nd referendum seems essential, and I think the options are Remain, May's Deal and No Deal -  and unlike last time make the result binding on Parliament, which should help concentrate the minds of the electorate.

May's deal is not a deal it is a transition, it does not preclude any options in final relationship with EU apart from no deal as far as I can tell.

The options in a referendum would have to be set by Parliament, it sounds to me like Labour front bench would support Norway or Canada type deal being the only options, I can see all Tories supporting that, since there is no betrayal narrative.

[Sassy]

Does it matter which particular lunatic is in charge of the asylum?

There you have it... not the person in charge but the Country/politics an asylum?

The Country is not the problem it is the people who voted them in and allowed the changes so the poor suffered.

Why not let a lunatic run it, if already an Asylum?

Your ourlook should tell you, as should your reply you have no hope in the country or the system as it is run now.

However this is our asylum and our lunatic, unless we want to be viewed the same way, it is time for Britain to stop anything that hurts our fellow citizens.

[ProfessorDavey]

May's deal is not a deal it is a transition,

True, albeit one without an enforceable end date, particularly because of the back-stop.

it does not preclude any options in final relationship with EU apart from no deal as far as I can tell.

Not true - the WA and the back-stop agreement preclude any permanent deal that results in a hard border in Ireland. Hence all the debate currently.

[Aruntraveller]

   The Country is not the problem it is the people who voted them in and allowed the changes so the poor suffered.

Except the vote to leave hands the power in this country to those who are the ones who allow the poor to suffer. The EU has nothing to do with those policies. The poor suffer because of UK legislation passed by our government. And now those same people are in power. Look at the position of ReesMogg, IDS , and many others within the Tory party, they do not see it as in their best interest to alleviate the suffering of the poor. And once we leave they will have even lees restraint on their actions. As its this time of year. Turkeys. Christmas.

[Spud]

I like the jacket which the PM wore today, it suits her. Did anyone spot the bulge in the sleeve though? I think she has something in there.... I think she's planning to revoke Article 50 if her deal is voted down.

[Roses]

I like the jacket which the PM wore today, it suits her. Did anyone spot the bulge in the sleeve though? I think she has something in there.... I think she's planning to revoke Article 50 if her deal is voted down.

May is a diabetic and has a monitoring patch on her arm, apparently.

[Gordon]

Corbyn is to table a vote on no confidence in the PM herself (not in the government) - which should be interesting in terms of how the 117 Tories who had no confidence in her leadership in the Tory-party only vote last week will continue to have no confidence in her again, or if they are a bunch of hypocrites.

This so much of a farce now I wouldn't be surprised if the ghost of dear old Brian Rix put in an appearance.

[wigginhall]

Yes, a farce combined with a collective madness, which is not amenable to reason.   I suppose it has to be played out, rather like a war. 

[Gordon]

On the above that could be quite a clever move by Corbyn, and when he announced this it was noticeable that TM quickly got up and left the chamber.

It creates quite a problem for the Tories following their internal vote of confidence last week, since if 117 of them have no confidence in her as leader of the Tory party it would be a surprise if they then had confidence in her as leader of the country (although which is the more difficult job is, I suppose, debatable).

Must get some popcorn in tomorrow.

[Spud]

At the moment parliament reminds me of the B-side of the Cliff Richard and the Young Ones single, Living Doll. Mike says, "Look guys, are we gonna do this song or not?" and Vivian says, "yes we are. But first... Let's have a fight!" and they all say, "ah good idea"

[wigginhall]

I think Brexit is like war fever, probably very difficult to control it.

[Gordon]

BBC reports that Corbyn's motion of no confidence in TM will be held tomorrow, and that the ERG will support her even though they had no confidence in her as their party leader last week - breathtaking hypocrisy, and no doubt this will be pointed out.

I suppose, if nothing else, it shows just how that Westminster politics is broken right now.

[jakswan]

Not true - the WA and the back-stop agreement preclude any permanent deal that results in a hard border in Ireland. Hence all the debate currently.

So Norway + still a runner then? Actually, isn't Norway - Sweden a soft border?

So it could mean Canada is a runner as well?

[jakswan]

At the moment parliament reminds me of the B-side of the Cliff Richard and the Young Ones single, Living Doll. Mike says, "Look guys, are we gonna do this song or not?" and Vivian says, "yes we are. But first... Let's have a fight!" and they all say, "ah good idea"

Yes the entire Parliament is split into factions.

Remain - lets say everything but remain is terrible and have another go, supported by extremist remainers
Reluctant Remainers and moderate leavers - Norway please
May's Deal - ok we got it we have to leave-ish.
No Deal - The other extremists

Labour Front Bench - Lets just not commit to anything but disagree with the Tories, and hopefully keep our backbench quiet.

Having given the vote to the electorate, the electorate said leave and now they can't act like grown-ups and reach a compromise.

I'd sack the lot of them and ban them for life for ever standing again.

[Gordon]

The saga continues in Westminster: first the SNP get an emergency debate on the details of May's meetings with the EU, then the BBC report that the government won't make time for Jeremy Corbyn's no confidence motion in TM, so the other parties then add an amendment to Corbyn's motion that turns it into a no confidence in the government motion, which must be allowed.

Of course by tomorrow it could all change: what a mess.

[ProfessorDavey]

So Norway + still a runner then?

Actually it would need to be Norway+---
+customs union
-EFTA
-free movement
-single market

Which effectively makes it Turkey - I wonder why no-one is 'marketing' Turkey as an option.

[Spud]

Having given the vote to the electorate, the electorate said leave and now they can't act like grown-ups and reach a compromise.

I'd sack the lot of them and ban them for life for ever standing again.

Suppose you get engaged and discover something about the fiancee that you couldn't accept... new information coming to light can mean you need to change your mind?

[jakswan]

Actually it would need to be Norway+---
+customs union
-EFTA
-free movement
-single market

Which effectively makes it Turkey - I wonder why no-one is 'marketing' Turkey as an option.

Freedom of movement of workers and single market and EFTA all can be included.

[ProfessorDavey]

Freedom of movement of workers and single market and EFTA all can be included.

Freedom of movement theoretically can be agreed by the government and the EU, but is against one of the Government's red lines.

EFTA membership cannot be agreed by the government and the EU as membership is in the gift of four countries who aren't a current EU member state.

Your notion that the government can unilaterally decide to be a member of EFTA is both naive and arrogant.

[jeremyp]

We have voted Leave that is a settled issue.

Honestly? Does it look like a settled issue to you?

Somewhere around half of the electorate think Brexit is a terrible mistake. That is not the definition of "settled".

[jeremyp]

I find it very condescending when some claim people didn't know what they were voting for. The question was simple. Leave or remain. People knew exactly what they were voting for.

Nobody on the Leave side knew what they were voting for in the sense of what deal, because the Leave campaign didn't tell them. Quite a lot of them also didn't know what they were voting against, because they had been lied to for years by the media and the Remain campaign failed to correct the lies.