Author Topic: Brexit - the next steps  (Read 399593 times)

Gordon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3825 on: March 30, 2019, 10:01:48 PM »
I suppose that is where a 2nd referendum could come in handy: if the current argument is the 'will of the people' then if the result is to revoke following a 2nd referendum then that argument still applies and democracy isn't rationed, and might be preferable to the HoC doing it via a vote - even so, as NS says, it could get nasty. 


Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3826 on: March 30, 2019, 11:30:28 PM »
The deselection of Grieve is going to be a joy compared to any part of R2
« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 09:22:35 AM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3827 on: March 31, 2019, 08:19:28 AM »
Sunday Times talking about Queen getting to involved possibly to stop a 'soft' Brexit. As republican as I am, I don't think she is that anything other than too clever to get involved.

Anchorman

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3828 on: March 31, 2019, 09:14:44 AM »
I suppose that is where a 2nd referendum could come in handy: if the current argument is the 'will of the people' then if the result is to revoke following a 2nd referendum then that argument still applies and democracy isn't rationed, and might be preferable to the HoC doing it via a vote - even so, as NS says, it could get nasty. 


     










Ofcourse, if Westminster DO sanction asecondreferendum, they must therefore notwithold a secondScottish referendum down the line.
After all, theyare not hypocrites,are they....?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3829 on: March 31, 2019, 09:21:55 AM »
     
Ofcourse, if Westminster DO sanction asecondreferendum, they must therefore notwithold a secondScottish referendum down the line.
After all, theyare not hypocrites,are they....?
That could cut both ways though. If the SNP were to vote for a 2nd referendum on a deal, then any Indyref should then arguably be followed by a vote on any negotiated deal.

Anchorman

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3830 on: March 31, 2019, 09:31:44 AM »
That could cut both ways though. If the SNP were to vote for a 2nd referendum on a deal, then any Indyref should then arguably be followed by a vote on any negotiated deal.
   



I'm not upon SNP policy, but from what's left of my memory, that was the planway back in 1986-ish. I don't think it's beenchanged.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3831 on: March 31, 2019, 10:14:41 AM »
   
I'm not upon SNP policy, but from what's left of my memory, that was the planway back in 1986-ish. I don't think it's beenchanged.
It wasn't at the last referendum.

jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3832 on: March 31, 2019, 10:17:50 AM »
Ofcourse, if Westminster DO sanction asecondreferendum, they must therefore notwithold a secondScottish referendum down the line.
After all, theyare not hypocrites,are they....?
Once this whole sorry mess is over, I think there should be a law that the government will never hold another referendum ever again. We elect the government to govern, not to abdicate its responsibilities.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3833 on: March 31, 2019, 10:35:06 AM »
Once this whole sorry mess is over, I think there should be a law that the government will never hold another referendum ever again. We elect the government to govern, not to abdicate its responsibilities.
So if the SNP were to put a vote for independence in the Scottish Parliament and it passed then they could declare independence?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3834 on: March 31, 2019, 01:23:47 PM »
Just musing about what might happen. May has few options now, all of which she hates. If she kowtows to the tory headbangers and tries to crash out she’ll probably face a vote of no confidence from her own party, so risks defenestration; she won’t go to a second referendum because, for whatever reason, she’s so heavily invested in refusing it that the climb down would be unacceptable; the GE option terrifies her because she knows she’d wipe out her own party probably for a generation, and in any case risking Corbyn getting in is existentially abhorrent.

As for Labour, Corbyn’s godawfulness both in general and specifically on Brexit means he might win a GE if there is one, but on a historically low turnout as a huge swathe of the country would feel politically homeless and would stay at home.

So what about the breakaway group that’s just formed a political party (Change UK)? Perhaps if they could run candidates in every constituency specifically on a people’s vote ticket they would offer a home for the groundswell of disaffected voters who want nothing to do with Brexit, so would have a place to register that.

Pretty far-fetched right, except traditional politics is now so fundamentally broken that the realignment has to happen somehow, and essentially Macron did just that in France when he came from nowhere to overthrow the long-established order.

Or am I losing it here?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 02:11:19 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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torridon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3835 on: March 31, 2019, 02:47:40 PM »
6 million signatories to "Revoke Article 50" now, far and away the most signed petition ever, more than 10 times the number for it nearest rival, "Leave the EU without a Deal" .

Shame the government only ever pays lip service to these petitions; if they were well organised with protections from abuse they could be a real component of a democratic voting system.  All that walking down to polling stations on polling day is so last century.

SusanDoris

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3836 on: March 31, 2019, 07:14:07 PM »
Is there any MP who really believes that leaving with no deal is the best thing to do? Surely not? Wil someone please tell me it isn't so.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3837 on: March 31, 2019, 08:08:39 PM »
So if the SNP were to put a vote for independence in the Scottish Parliament and it passed then they could declare independence?
I said there should be a law against more referendums. What part of that was hard for you to understand?
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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3838 on: March 31, 2019, 08:11:13 PM »
she’ll probably face a vote of no confidence from her own party,

Not possible until the end of the year. Tory Party rules say she cannot be challenged again for the leadership for a year after the last challenge.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3839 on: March 31, 2019, 10:14:22 PM »
I said there should be a law against more referendums. What part of that was hard for you to understand?
Nothing. Can you answer the question?

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Anchorman

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3841 on: April 01, 2019, 09:42:33 AM »
Once this whole sorry mess is over, I think there should be a law that the government will never hold another referendum ever again. We elect the government to govern, not to abdicate its responsibilities.



Thing is, though, Holyrood COULD -theoretically- holdareferendumwithout Westminsterconsent.
My basis for this goes back to the Tory privatisation of water. Long before the Scottish Parliament was recreated,the then StrathclydeRegional council held a referendumon whether their populace agreed with this.
Needless to say, we did not....and Westminster heeded the result, and, to this day,Scottish Water remains publicly owned.
That's a precedent for any putative future vote without Westminster consent.
Were such a referendum to be conducted freely and fairly, Westminster could not ignore the outcome.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3842 on: April 01, 2019, 09:48:40 AM »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3843 on: April 01, 2019, 10:47:15 AM »
NS,

What's today's date again?
Hence the winking smiley


jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3845 on: April 01, 2019, 01:32:58 PM »
Nothing. Can you answer the question?

It's pretty obvious. If there is a law against referendums, there would be no Scottish independence referendum. That's what it means to have a law against something: you are not allowed to do it anymore.
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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3846 on: April 01, 2019, 01:33:54 PM »

Thing is, though, Holyrood COULD -theoretically- holdareferendumwithout Westminsterconsent.
Not if there was a law against it.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3847 on: April 01, 2019, 01:59:07 PM »
Not if there was a law against it.

Would that be The Wheredoyouthinkyou'regoingifwe'reupshitcreekyoulotarejollywellgoingtostayinitwithus Act of 2019?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3848 on: April 01, 2019, 02:34:59 PM »
It's pretty obvious. If there is a law against referendums, there would be no Scottish independence referendum. That's what it means to have a law against something: you are not allowed to do it anymore.
I didn't say referendum, by vote I meant one in the parliament, apologies for being unclear.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #3849 on: April 01, 2019, 02:37:30 PM »
Vlad's been at the wine gums again ,,,
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?