Brexit - the next steps

[jeremyp]

I didn't say referendum, by vote I meant one in the parliament, apologies for being unclear.

No. It’s me that should apologize as I misread your post. You clearly did say “vote in parliament”.

To answer the question you did ask, I am not a scholar of the British constitution but I would be surprised if the modern Scottish Parliament has the authority to repeal the Acts of Union. They could certainly have a vote for independence, but they would have to then convince the British parliament to go along with it. I think it would take many years of campaigning and debate, but I think you are more likely to end up with a solution that benefits everybody than by taking a snapshot of the opinions of people who may be swayed by nationalistic bias and and wishful thinking (this applies to both sides, by the way).

[Nearly Sane]

No. It’s me that should apologize as I misread your post. You clearly did say “vote in parliament”.

To answer the question you did ask, I am not a scholar of the British constitution but I would be surprised if the modern Scottish Parliament has the authority to repeal the Acts of Union. They could certainly have a vote for independence, but they would have to then convince the British parliament to go along with it. I think it would take many years of campaigning and debate, but I think you are more likely to end up with a solution that benefits everybody than by taking a snapshot of the opinions of people who may be swayed by nationalistic bias and and wishful thinking (this applies to both sides, by the way).

No problem. The issue I see with that then it would be problematic in terms of the UN ideas of self determination. If the decision is controlled by the overall state then the Baltic States could have been refused by the USSR.

[Spud]

So presumably all the 'Leave means leave' gang would be happy with a soft Brexit? If their sole purpose is to leave, it shouldn't matter what kind of deal we have.

[Spud]

Robert Buckland saying there was an attempted coup tonight and that 'a customs Union is not Brexit' ... Well sorry but it is, Brexit means Leave the EU, whether or not we stay in customs Union

[Roses]

The UK is beginning to look as stupid the US with that idiot, Trump, in charge. I think at the very least we should have another referendum, now people have a clearer idea how damaging Brexit is likely to be for this country.

[Udayana]

The UK is beginning to look as stupid the US with that idiot, Trump, in charge. I think at the very least we should have another referendum, now people have a clearer idea how damaging Brexit is likely to be for this country.

Given the impasse istm that the UK should request an extension now, rather than continuing to debate options none of which are likely to pass with a significant majority given the inability of the two main parties to compromise or bargain. Then we should reassess how to resolve the issues.

First off there will be EU elections. The remain and soft-brexit groups should (in my dreams) form a coalition to fight these under a single banner making a case for Europe or ways to cooperate in the future if we leave.
 
   

[jeremyp]

The UK is beginning to look as stupid the US with that idiot, Trump, in charge.

"Beginning"? I think that ship has already sailed.

[jeremyp]

No problem. The issue I see with that then it would be problematic in terms of the UN ideas of self determination.

Well the UN ideas on self determination are a bit problematic in themselves. What defines a "people"? If the population of Scotland is a people and they wish to secede from the UK, shouldn't some of the peoples within Scotland be allowed to stay in the UK if they wish? For example, in the last referendum, the votes in both Scottish Borders and Orkney went two thirds to staying in the UK.

Wouldn't putting the UN principle of self determination into British law lead to the possibility of somewhere like Yorkshire or London being able to secede?

If the decision is controlled by the overall state then the Baltic States could have been refused by the USSR.

The USSR could have refused anyway. It wasn't the UN principle of self determination that made them let the Baltic states become independent.

[SusanDoris]

for those who would like another referendum: how would you feel if you had felt sstrongly that (a)we should  leave,(b) had a larger percentage of those who voted than the remainers and (c) haven't changed their minds, however unfortunate that appears to be to me?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Susan,

for those who would like another referendum: how would you feel if you had felt sstrongly that (a)we should  leave,(b) had a larger percentage of those who voted than the remainers and (c) haven't changed their minds, however unfortunate that appears to be to me?

Depends how it was done. If it was just announced, probably pretty unhappy. If the rationale was explained though, I’d have nowhere to go. Leaving aside the sandwich of 30-odd years before of the Telegraph, Sun, Express and Mail tilling the soil by lying about the EU and the inability afterwards of Parliament to find an answer, the filling is the 2016 referendum itself. It was corrupt in my view for three reasons:

1. None of the promises made by the loudest and most influential proponents were true.

2. It was illegally funded, with some £7m of campaign funds still unaccounted for.

3. The question was so vague that no matter what solution is proposed (hard exit, customs union, Norway, Canada etc etc) the proponent will claim that that’s what the 17-odd million wanted so it honours their wished. Manifestly this cannot be true. 

If this stuff happened in a parish council meeting or a cricket match it’d be voided and run again. Yet somehow May and others seem determined to peddle the nonsense of “honouring the referendum” as if it was a legitimate democratic exercise.

It wasn’t and I find it hard see how anyone can “bring the country together” when the side that lost believes it was cheated.       

[Gordon]

for those who would like another referendum: how would you feel if you had felt sstrongly that (a)we should  leave,(b) had a larger percentage of those who voted than the remainers and (c) haven't changed their minds, however unfortunate that appears to be to me?

I'd explain that what was asked in 2016 was just an idea, and that therefore those voting for Brexit were essentially voting in ignorance, and we now know that not only is Brexit imprecise, that attempts to make it happen with a coherent policy have been shamboli, and that in any form Brexit will be disadvantageous. 

So if people are pissed off should Article 50 be pulled with or without a referendum because it prevents catastrophe they should perhaps vent their fury at the Tory party and relevant others for creating at situation that a) they hadn't planned for, and b) they can't manage. That names like Johnson, Farage and Fox are just some of the people inflicting this disaster on us should worry those who still think Brexit is a good idea.

Democracy isn't rationed and can reasonably be reapplied should circumstances require it - and they certainly require it now.     

[Nearly Sane]

Mmm


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-train-railway-line-cambridgeshire-nottinghamshire-police-a8851181.html

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

Mmm


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-train-railway-line-cambridgeshire-nottinghamshire-police-a8851181.html

"British Transport Police (BTP) said short-circuiting devices were left on tracks near Yaxley, Cambridgeshire..."

"Tommy Robinson"'s real name is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon.

Just thought I'd mention it. 

[SusanDoris]

bluehillside and Gordon

I agree with your replies, but I don't think a large number of those who voted leave would be happy with any explanations. When I hear some of the callers (only on five Live because I can only stand a very limited number even there of that!) I hear the bigoted ], blinkered  opinions of those who would be impervious to any rational reasoning. And I sigh deeply and switch off.

[jeremyp]

NS,

"British Transport Police (BTP) said short-circuiting devices were left on tracks near Yaxley, Cambridgeshire..."

"Tommy Robinson"'s real name is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon.

Just thought I'd mention it.

Do you think it might be a false flag operation then?

[bluehillside Retd.]

jeremy,

Do you think it might be a false flag operation then?

No idea. Might be a message of some sort, might be just a co-incidence. 

[jeremyp]

jeremy,

No idea. Might be a message of some sort, might be just a co-incidence.

It strikes me as odd that all the violence or threatened violence associated with Brexit seems to be associated with Brexiteers. Are there no Remainers prepared to blockade a motorway or derail trains? People have advanced arguments that we need to go through with Brexit because there might be violence otherwise. Nobody seems to be claiming that, if we do go through with Brexit, Remainers will be rioting in the streets.

I wonder why it is. Why is it that only Brexiteers seem to be associated with disruptive protests a la French farmers? What’s wrong with us Remainers?

[bluehillside Retd.]

jeremy,

It strikes me as odd that all the violence or threatened violence associated with Brexit seems to be associated with Brexiteers. Are there no Remainers prepared to blockade a motorway or derail trains? People have advanced arguments that we need to go through with Brexit because there might be violence otherwise. Nobody seems to be claiming that, if we do go through with Brexit, Remainers will be rioting in the streets.

I wonder why it is. Why is it that only Brexiteers seem to be associated with disruptive protests a la French farmers? What’s wrong with us Remainers?

Because the remainers are far too lovely for all that unpleasantness. The Peoples' Vote march was all mumsy, middle England, swapping apple pie recipes, just terribly nice. The angriest they'd ever get would be tutting if someone parked over the dividing line in the Waitrose carpark. A week later the the Brexiters were all Doc Martens, marching pipe bands, buzz cuts, women dressed as Boadicea, stale beer and temper tantrums. Different demographics.   

[Nearly Sane]

jeremy,

Because the remainers are far too lovely for all that unpleasantness. The Peoples' Vote march was all mumsy, middle England, swapping apple pie recipes, just terribly nice. The angriest they'd ever get would be tutting if someone parked over the dividing line in the Waitrose carpark. A week later the the Brexiters were all Doc Martens, marching pipe bands, buzz cuts, women dressed as Boadicea, stale beer and temper tantrums. Different demographics.   

Perhaps one of the reason 17.4 m people might be angry is being stereotyped?

[Roses]

When one thought the Brexit nonsense couldn't get any crazier, it just has, with May preparing to lick Corbyn's bottom!

[Aruntraveller]

And as a fan of Doc Martens, buzz cuts and the EU it is an obviously incorrect observation.

[Aruntraveller]

When one thought the Brexit nonsense couldn't get any crazier, it just has, with May preparing to lick Corbyn's bottom!

No actually. This is what she should have done a lot earlier, tried to build a consensus.

I won't even go into your juvenile playground statement. 

[Roses]

No actually. This is what she should have done a lot earlier, tried to build a consensus.

I won't even go into your juvenile playground statement. 

YAH BOO SUCKS. Corbyn is a leaver, in case you hadn't worked that one out.

[Aruntraveller]

YAH BOO SUCKS. Corbyn is a leaver, in case you hadn't worked that one out.

Yes I had worked that out and your point is? (Although I think unenthusiastic remainer more accurately sums up his position)

So even if he is a leaver it is not in the same way that Boris or Rees Mogg are. I'll take Corbyn's version over theirs any day.

Had you worked that out?

[Roses]

Yes I had worked that out and your point is? (Although I think unenthusiastic remainer more accurately sums up his position)

So even if he is a leaver it is not in the same way that Boris or Rees Mogg are. I'll take Corbyn's version over theirs any day.

Had you worked that out?

You think Corbyn is the BIG CHEESE, I had worked that one out. If he ever becomes PM it would be interesting to see how he copes.