Brexit - the next steps

[Nearly Sane]

It's worth noting that a similar number were happy to have Brexit if it lead to the loss of NI, or significant bad economic effects. It also had 54 - 36 in favour of Brexit if it lead to the destruction of the Tory party.

[Gordon]

It seems to me that for the most part Brexit has addled the political thinking of the Tory party at large just as it has their long-standing europhobic lunatic-fringe element (Cash et al): whatever the political outcomes of the coming months are I do hope it will lead to the demise of the Tory party 'as is' here in Scotland, and elsewhere too.

[jeremyp]

I'll just leave this here... https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/06/tories-would-now-rather-face-scottish-independence-lose-brexit?fbclid=IwAR2jf-x09XGeuK45tvb0SGT3OCkxJF_sQeN1Q2NFgVyz6AlfR8YQJMh5960

I don't see where the evidence comes from that the Tories would sacrifice the Union for Brexit. You may argue that it is an inevitable consequence, but your average Conservative Party member would disagree with you.

The Brexiteers of whatever stripe (and no, they are not all English and they are not all Tories) seem to be characterised by varying levels of delusion. This is the fundamental issue with respect to our negotiations with the EU. They want all the benefits of being in the EU without being in the EU and they can't understand why it won't happen. They want open borders with Ireland without having an open border with the EU of which Ireland is a part. It obviously can't work like that but they refuse to accept it.

Anyway, as long as there is a Conservative government in Westminster, you are not getting another referendum. They'll say you had your vote and you said no. They will refuse to acknowledge the fundamental change in the political landscape just as they are refusing to acknowledge the things that have happened since the Brexit referendum. You should probably be thankful for that because the chaos involved in Scottish independence will make Brexit look like a picnic.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't see where the evidence comes from that the Tories would sacrifice the Union for Brexit. You may argue that it is an inevitable consequence, but your average Conservative Party member would disagree with you.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-majority-of-tory-members-would-accept-scottish-independence-as-price-of-brexit-1-4949043

[jeremyp]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-majority-of-tory-members-would-accept-scottish-independence-as-price-of-brexit-1-4949043

Well that's interesting and disturbing.

Half would rather call the whole thing [Brexit] off rather than allow the Labour leader inside Downing Street.

So they think Brexit is important enough to risk dismantling the UK but not important enough to let one particular man run the country for a maximum of five years. I think there's something off about that poll.

[SteveH]

A hero for our time!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/14/gina-miller-legal-action-block-no-deal-brexit-boris-johnson?CMP=share_btn_fb&fbclid=IwAR3acCVBzrFtWMj-0Iode85dHVI0KMzvwezqe3gI7IjYjPsbabKfQmttsXk

[Gordon]

This 2015 article by (the now rehabilitated) Roger Scruton (apparently a Tory supporter) is worth a read, such as his comments on MPs kowtowing to their constituents (such as Labour MPs in 'leave' areas) and using simple questions (such as 'Leave' vs 'Remain').

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/08/why-mps-have-a-duty-to-resist-online-petitions/

Parliaments exist to inject hesitation and circumspection into the legislative process. And when we think about it we all agree this is a good thing. We all agree that the common good, rather than mass sentiment, should be the source of law, and that the common good may be hard to discover and obscured by crowd emotions.

However, tempted by a ‘one-click’ response to a complex question, people can be persuaded to add their voice to campaigns designed to bypass argument in the interest of a foregone conclusion. Invariably the conclusion has the beauty and simplicity of a final solution to some problem that affects us all.

Conservative MPs should also take note of the great speech given by Edmund Burke to the electors of Bristol, in which he distinguished representation from delegation. The MP represents the interests of his constituents, not their opinions. And he represents those interests through a process designed to issue in laws that contribute to the wise government of us all. The representative does not sit on the benches of Parliament in order to jump up at every opportunity and repeat what the voters told him to say. He might well decide that the voters are ill-informed or moved by some passion that should, in their own interests, be overruled or discounted.

[Gordon]

Saw this comment on the Grauniad blog: 'The undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed.'

Sums up the Brexit shambles nicely.

[Roses]

With Boris overseeing Brexit and Trump holding his hand, the mythical End Times are upon us!!!!!

[Robbie]

I find everything about this issue depressing; even the word 'Brexit' causes my mood to sink.

[jeremyp]

I find everything about this issue depressing; even the word 'Brexit' causes my mood to sink.

I can't look at a clip of Boris Johnson on the news without swearing at the telly.

I never thought I'd live to see the end of my country.

[Roses]

The word 'Brexit' makes my BP hit the ceiling!

[Udayana]

I find everything about this issue depressing; even the word 'Brexit' causes my mood to sink.

You are not alone. Brexit related anxiety or depression has been widely reported,  climate change related also:

The Guardian: 'All I hear is anger and frustration': how Brexit is affecting our mental health

BBC R4: The Upside of Anxiety

Anxiety has become one of the defining characteristics of our modern age, with millions of us suffering from its various damaging effects. It comes in many shapes and sizes - status anxiety, social anxiety, and more recently Brexit and Eco-anxiety. Figures indicate a big rise in its prevalence, particularly among young people and members of minority groups

[Robbie]

That's interesting Udayana, I didn't know Brexit had such a collective depressive effect. I've certainly been 'down', weary and anxious because of it, I thought it was just me over reacting and felt a bit of a fool.

Thanks for posting the links.

[Walter]

I can't look at a clip of Boris Johnson on the news without swearing at the telly.

I never thought I'd live to see the end of my country.

this is my country too and I'm now feeling good about it. If it all gets too much for you why not leave?

[jeremyp]

this is my country too and I'm now feeling good about it.

With a bunch of buffoons who are more interested in saving their careers than stopping the country from crashing out of the EU with no deal, how can you possibly be feeling good.

If it all gets too much for you why not leave?

No. Why don't the Brexiteers fuck off to some uninhabited island in the Pacific where they can have their 1950's monarchy with their pounds and furlongs and no Johnny Foreigners to spice up their dull existence.

This country is being destroyed and it's the Brexiteers' fault.

[Walter]

With a bunch of buffoons who are more interested in saving their careers than stopping the country from crashing out of the EU with no deal, how can you possibly be feeling good.
No. Why don't the Brexiteers fuck off to some uninhabited island in the Pacific where they can have their 1950's monarchy with their pounds and furlongs and no Johnny Foreigners to spice up their dull existence.

This country is being destroyed and it's the Brexiteers' fault.

fuck me!
Triggered or what
Get a grip man or you'll end up dissolving into a little puddle of salty tears

[ProfessorDavey]

this is my country too and I'm now feeling good about it. If it all gets too much for you why not leave?

Oh no - it's the Trump playbook.

[Walter]

Oh no - it's the Trump playbook.

haha

Well spotted prof , some folk don't have a sense of humour 😂

[Roses]

With a bunch of buffoons who are more interested in saving their careers than stopping the country from crashing out of the EU with no deal, how can you possibly be feeling good.
No. Why don't the Brexiteers fuck off to some uninhabited island in the Pacific where they can have their 1950's monarchy with their pounds and furlongs and no Johnny Foreigners to spice up their dull existence.

This country is being destroyed and it's the Brexiteers' fault.

I agree. The extreme Brexiteers lied about the advantage Brexit would be to the UK, and many people were gullible enough to believe them. I think the result of leaving, especially with a no deal, will be a weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth!

[ippy]

Increasingly concerned about the lack of balance on BBC QT.

Last night there was one current Tory (Rudd) and two ex-Tories (Soubrey and Farage) - effectively 3/5 of the panel reflected the current Tory infighting between the centre right (Soubrey) and the hard right (Farage).

And the other two were a current Labour MP and an ex-Labour donor.

And just Soubrey is in favour of remain/people's vote.

Where is the balance in a world where, even on the basis of the 2016 referendum, the country split is 52:48.

The BBC is really struggling in this new world where brexit is the biggest yes/no issue and it is getting it badly wrong.

Give yourself a treat Proff, assuming you haven't already done so Go to YouTube and look for Lord Pearson's address to the HOLords about brexit

In his own words referring to the BBC:

 'Since the referendum there has only been one programme examining the opportunities of Brexit on the BBC and cannot point to any other on this subject and that is just examining the possibilities not promoting them'.

A bit further on he referred to the findings of a survey by a company he used  called 'Civitas' where this company found that:

'BBC interviewees since the referendum, out of 4275 guests 132 were supporters of the of the withdrawal from the EU or in fact this amounted to 3.2% of this guest list'.

I'd settle for, as compensation for their bias, seeing a re-run of the BBC's coverage of the referendum night with all of the beautifully picturesque, mortified looks on virtually all of the BBC's staff and I would enjoy seeing Jeremy Vine explaining his abandoned double yellow brick road, for old times sake.

Oh no the BBC always looks as though it has a bias whichever side you're on, pigs? Where?

ippy

[jeremyp]

fuck me!
Triggered or what
Get a grip man or you'll end up dissolving into a little puddle of salty tears

Too late. Brexit never fails to trigger me because of the way the people were swindled by a few xenophobic arseholes.

[jeremyp]

Give yourself a treat Proff, assuming you haven't already done so Go to YouTube and look for Lord Pearson's address to the HOLords about brexit

In his own words referring to the BBC:

 'Since the referendum there has only been one programme examining the opportunities of Brexit on the BBC and cannot point to any other on this subject and that is just examining the possibilities not promoting them'.

A bit further on he referred to the findings of a survey by a company he used  called 'Civitas' where this company found that:

'BBC interviewees since the referendum, out of 4275 guests 132 were supporters of the of the withdrawal from the EU or in fact this amounted to 3.2% of this guest list'.

I'd settle for, as compensation for their bias, seeing a re-run of the BBC's coverage of the referendum night with all of the beautifully picturesque, mortified looks on virtually all of the BBC's staff and I would enjoy seeing Jeremy Vine explaining his abandoned double yellow brick road, for old times sake.

Oh no the BBC always looks as though it has a bias whichever side you're on, pigs? Where?

ippy

So the BBC are biased

or

the BBC are telling it like it is.

[ippy]

So the BBC are biased

or

the BBC are telling it like it is.

It's always good to hear the minority view.

ippy

[ProfessorDavey]

Give yourself a treat Proff, assuming you haven't already done so Go to YouTube and look for Lord Pearson's address to the HOLords about brexit

In his own words referring to the BBC:

 'Since the referendum there has only been one programme examining the opportunities of Brexit on the BBC and cannot point to any other on this subject and that is just examining the possibilities not promoting them'.

A bit further on he referred to the findings of a survey by a company he used  called 'Civitas' where this company found that:

'BBC interviewees since the referendum, out of 4275 guests 132 were supporters of the of the withdrawal from the EU or in fact this amounted to 3.2% of this guest list'.

I'd settle for, as compensation for their bias, seeing a re-run of the BBC's coverage of the referendum night with all of the beautifully picturesque, mortified looks on virtually all of the BBC's staff and I would enjoy seeing Jeremy Vine explaining his abandoned double yellow brick road, for old times sake.

Oh no the BBC always looks as though it has a bias whichever side you're on, pigs? Where?

ippy

So UKIP Peer quotes right wing think tank to support the notion that the BBC is biased - what will you be telling me next? That the Pope's a catholic or that bears do their number twos in the woods.

I do love this bit from the Civitas 'report':

'During the same period, two strongly pro-EU Conservatives, Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine, made between them 28 appearances, with contributions totalling 11,208 words – over nine times the amount of airtime allocated to all left-wing withdrawalists.' - the period being 2002 to 2017.

Failed to mention that Nigel Farage has appeared 33 times on Question Time over a similar period at a rate of appearance per year higher than any other regular panelist in the programme's 40 year history.