Brexit - the next steps

[ippy]

Nope: that Brexit will be disastrous isn't just a matter of opinion, ippy, since there are ample facts about the likely consequences that support the opinion that Brexit will be disastrous.

Of course for the Brexit enthusiast facts no longer matter - they have faith now you know, and moreover a faith sustained by oodles of credulous gullibility. Try asking one what the actual benefits of Brexit are and you'll find them stuck in a loop of simplistic slogans (some of which are lies), before they eventually seek solace in the '17.4 million voted for it' ad pop.

Again no to you and yours of a similar opinion anyway remainers lost the vote really that should be the end of the matter, I can however imagine I would be into some form of giant moan had the vote been the other way.

I can see there's no way leavers and remainers will ever agree over this subject but I will say I have many reasons for wanting to leave a federal Europe that in my view was placed on us by acts of subterfuge in my unalterable opinion.

The very top of my list of the many things about the the EU that I will never accept is that EU court being able to over rule our topmost court of appeal.

If the persistent attempts by the remainers are able to in some way to successfully subvert the democratic referendum vote to leave, I can see there'll be some kind of serious trouble break out all over the country, I think I could just about do some form of non violent civil disobedience myself and even the Scots can't all be remainers.

The UK geographical position won't be altering and as far as I know there's no likelihood of the UK declaring war on the EU, where is there any difficulty in making arrangements to get on with Europe apart from the obvious agreements etc.

I'm very happy to get on with Europe I just don't, like the majority of the UK population, want to be a part of the Federal EU, I wish them well.

ippy

[Stranger]

Again no to you and yours of a similar opinion anyway remainers lost the vote really that should be the end of the matter...

Not if you actually believe in democracy as much as Brexiteers pretend to. What the leave campaign described was nothing like what turned out to be possible and it certainly wasn't a no-deal. Not to mention the barefaced lies.

FFS if you bought something from Amazon and the description was as unlike the reality as the leave campaign was, you'd be perfectly justified in sending it back and writing a disparaging review to the effect that it wasn't what you ordered. You personally may be happy to see people lose their jobs, the economy to be seriously damaged, and the break up of the UK to get your little England fantasy, but don't presume to speak for everybody who voted leave.

I can see there's no way leavers and remainers will ever agree over this subject but I will say I have many reasons for wanting to leave a federal Europe that in my view was placed on us by acts of subterfuge in my unalterable opinion.

An unalterable opinion tends to be an irrational one.

The very top of my list of the many things about the the EU that I will never accept is that EU court being able to over rule our topmost court of appeal.

What on earth is wrong with that?

I'm very happy to get on with Europe I just don't, like the majority of the UK population, want to be a part of the Federal EU, I wish them well.

The majority of the population didn't vote to leave - a small majority of those who voted did - on the basis of false promises and barefaced lies.

[ippy]

Not if you actually believe in democracy as much as Brexiteers pretend to. What the leave campaign described was nothing like what turned out to be possible and it certainly wasn't a no-deal. Not to mention the barefaced lies.

FFS if you bought something from Amazon and the description was as unlike the reality as the leave campaign was, you'd be perfectly justified in sending it back and writing a disparaging review to the effect that it wasn't what you ordered. You personally may be happy to see people lose their jobs, the economy to be seriously damaged, and the break up of the UK to get your little England fantasy, but don't presume to speak for everybody who voted leave.

An unalterable opinion tends to be an irrational one.

What on earth is wrong with that?

The majority of the population didn't vote to leave - a small majority of those who voted did - on the basis of false promises and barefaced lies.

We don't agree on our definition of democracy I would guess your reading and understanding of the choice given on the ballot paper was the same as mine, in or out, anything else you're bringing up appears to me to be a thorough dislike of the result and if it had gone the other way I have to admit I wouldn't of liked it either.

I can't see my unalterable not wanting to stay as a part of the EU is without reason no matter how much we disagree that's it, we disagree the EU court's being able to overrule our UK courts obviously doesn't bother you fair enough we don't agree, thus the referendum, leave won the day, it's hardly my fault your point of view didn't win the referendum.

I don't think you're stupid because you want to stay in the EU like you visa versa whichever way you wish to put it we both think the other monumentally wrong therefore the only answer a referendum, leave won so as soon as please.

ippy

[ippy]

I Y O.

ippy

I can't see any valid reason to use any quote or selection/whatever from the BBC on Brexit seriously.

ippy

[ippy]

Yes. Did you read my link? Do you have an opinion on it.

Their's no point looking at the BBC's one way output about anything to do with brexit, but no matter what it says leave won the referendum so we should be leaving.

ippy

[ippy]

Since the referendum (and in it's immediate run up) I believe the BBC has moved to unbiased panels with regard to brexit position. Prveiously (and not unreasonably) the panel make up reflected party political support, such that panelists were invited on the basis of party electoral support.

Why should a panel in 2010 involve equivalent panelist with regard to their position on the EU, when the EU was considered to be an important issue facing the country by less than 10% of the population.

You could pick any other number of minor concerns of the public and demand that QT should have equal numbers of people on either side, but ultimately it would be impossible to pick a panel.

It'd be a big surprise if the remainers were outnumbered by leavers on QT, a monumentally big surprise, the staff at the BBC would rather die than outnumber the remainers on QT, it won't happen ever.

ippy

[Stranger]

We don't agree on our definition of democracy I would guess your reading and understanding of the choice given on the ballot paper was the same as mine, in or out, anything else you're bringing up appears to me to be a thorough dislike of the result and if it had gone the other way I have to admit I wouldn't of liked it either.

It was always a stupid question to put to in a referendum anyway (if, indeed, there is any place for them in our system at all), but in practice, all people had to go on about what leaving would entail is what the campaign said - and it was totally unlike the choices that are now before us. That's before we get to the lies and law breaking.

I can't see my unalterable not wanting to stay as a part of the EU is without reason...

I didn't say without reason, I was pointing out that an opinion that is unalterable (say, in the light of new information) is likely to be irrational.

...no matter how much we disagree that's it, we disagree the EU court's being able to overrule our UK courts obviously doesn't bother you fair enough we don't agree...

You still haven't said what about it you think is so terrible that you'd accept a no-deal, damage to the economy, working people losing their jobs, businesses going bust, and the break up of the UK, in order to stop it.

I just don't understand what the problem is. It's not like the EU is trying to impose some dreadful laws on us that we've had no say in.

...thus the referendum, leave won the day, it's hardly my fault your point of view didn't win the referendum.

I didn't suggest that it was.

I don't think you're stupid because you want to stay in the EU like you visa versa whichever way you wish to put it we both think the other monumentally wrong therefore the only answer a referendum, leave won so as soon as please.

And you still haven't given a hint of any reason why you want it so much you'd be prepared to sacrifice jobs and livelihoods, crash the economy, and make the UK a world laughing stock - assuming it survives as the United Kingdom at all.

What's so bad about it?

[Gordon]

If the persistent attempts by the remainers are able to in some way to successfully subvert the democratic referendum vote to leave, I can see there'll be some kind of serious trouble break out all over the country, I think I could just about do some form of non violent civil disobedience myself and even the Scots can't all be remainers.

ippy

I suspect that you are over-playing 'democracy' here given the history involving the non-binding 2016 referendum, since the simplistic question used was clearly inadequate given the complexities that are now all too painfully apparent, and where those driving the 'leave' agenda in 2016 provided no substantive information regarding the consequences of Brexit: for example, I certainly can't remember the NI situation being raised by them back in 2016, therefore it is fair comment to say that those supporting 'leave' in 2016 did so in the absence of any meaningful information regarding the issues and practicalities: as H.L Mencken noted, when it comes to 'democracy' the presumption that collective wisdom arises from individual ignorance is 'pathetic' (his term), and this is all to obvious in the case of the Brexit referendum.

As regards 'serious trouble' when Brexit is binned it may be that there are outbreaks of dancing in the streets here in Scotland: but then Brexit, it seems to me, is largely an English affectation.   

[jeremyp]

Their's no point looking at the BBC's one way output about anything to do with brexit, but no matter what it says leave won the referendum so we should be leaving.

ippy

You’re indulging in all the same tactics as creationists. Your opinion ion is unalterable no matter what new facts may emerge. You pretend reliable sources of information are biased because they don’t agree with you.

So tell us, can you name one aspect of EU membership that has disadvantaged you personally.

[jeremyp]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49223319

Give us a better deal or we'll shoot our own foot off. You can't make it up.

[Udayana]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49223319

Give us a better deal or we'll shoot our own foot off. You can't make it up.

I can think of a couple of ways to force the EU27 into re-negotiating the backstop... this isn't one.

Still, if people want to vote to to make themselves poorer, elect clowns as leaders or trash the planet who am I to get in the way?

[SteveH]

New nickname for the prime minister - Boris Badenough.

[jeremyp]

I can think of a couple of ways to force the EU27 into re-negotiating the backstop... this isn't one.

Really? What are they?

Still, if people want to vote to to make themselves poorer, elect clowns as leaders or trash the planet who am I to get in the way?

Because they don't just make themselves poorer.

[wigginhall]

Yes, making yourself poorer is a fantasy.  You make a lot of people poorer, including those who don't want to be.  But it's a cult, beyond reason.

[SteveH]

Yes, making yourself poorer is a fantasy.  You make a lot of people poorer, including those who don't want to be.  But it's a cult, beyond reason.

Boris Johnson is certainly a cult.

[ippy]

It was always a stupid question to put to in a referendum anyway (if, indeed, there is any place for them in our system at all), but in practice, all people had to go on about what leaving would entail is what the campaign said - and it was totally unlike the choices that are now before us. That's before we get to the lies and law breaking.

I didn't say without reason, I was pointing out that an opinion that is unalterable (say, in the light of new information) is likely to be irrational.

You still haven't said what about it you think is so terrible that you'd accept a no-deal, damage to the economy, working people losing their jobs, businesses going bust, and the break up of the UK, in order to stop it.

I just don't understand what the problem is. It's not like the EU is trying to impose some dreadful laws on us that we've had no say in.

I didn't suggest that it was.

And you still haven't given a hint of any reason why you want it so much you'd be prepared to sacrifice jobs and livelihoods, crash the economy, and make the UK a world laughing stock - assuming it survives as the United Kingdom at all.

What's so bad about it?

Quote from: ippy on August 03, 2019, 05:47:39 PM
I can't see my unalterable not wanting to stay as a part of the EU is without reason...

I didn't say without reason, I was pointing out that an opinion that is unalterable (say, in the light of new information) is likely to be irrational.


Well yes it would look like that to you, I find the control of our courts by the EU unacceptable, you don't, it wouldn't matter what I put up to you why I think the way I do we're not going to agree; this kind of thing was nationwide thus a referendum.

ippy 

[ippy]

You’re indulging in all the same tactics as creationists. Your opinion ion is unalterable no matter what new facts may emerge. You pretend reliable sources of information are biased because they don’t agree with you.

So tell us, can you name one aspect of EU membership that has disadvantaged you personally.

As you know jp, whatever change is made involving this scale of change will involve taking an overall decision, it' pretty obvious both our estimations are not going to the same ever, like I've said before this kind of thing or disagreement was nationwide thus a referendum.

ippy

[Stranger]

Well yes it would look like that to you...

Don't you get why having an unalterable opinion, that is therefore not open to reason or new information, is not rational? It's like blind faith.

...I find the control of our courts by the EU unacceptable, you don't, it wouldn't matter what I put up to you why I think the way I do we're not going to agree...

• Why won't you say why you find it unacceptable? Can you name some instance where it has affected you, or even the country, adversely?
  
  
• If we crash out with no deal, what would you say to somebody who'd lost their job or business as to why you thought it was worth it?
  
  
• How do you know that it wouldn't matter what you said? My opinion isn't unalterable. Is this more blind faith?

[ippy]

I suspect that you are over-playing 'democracy' here given the history involving the non-binding 2016 referendum, since the simplistic question used was clearly inadequate given the complexities that are now all too painfully apparent, and where those driving the 'leave' agenda in 2016 provided no substantive information regarding the consequences of Brexit: for example, I certainly can't remember the NI situation being raised by them back in 2016, therefore it is fair comment to say that those supporting 'leave' in 2016 did so in the absence of any meaningful information regarding the issues and practicalities: as H.L Mencken noted, when it comes to 'democracy' the presumption that collective wisdom arises from individual ignorance is 'pathetic' (his term), and this is all to obvious in the case of the Brexit referendum.

As regards 'serious trouble' when Brexit is binned it may be that there are outbreaks of dancing in the streets here in Scotland: but then Brexit, it seems to me, is largely an English affectation.

I can't see that we'll ever be at one on this subject Gordon, just as a footnote I'll be making a point of celebrating if we manage to leave in spite of all of the remoaning subterfuge.

ippy

[Gordon]

I can't see that we'll ever be at one on this subject Gordon, just as a footnote I'll be making a point of celebrating if we manage to leave in spite of all of the remoaning subterfuge.

ippy

I don't think there is subterfuge going on, ippy: those seeking to stop Brexit are clearly indicating their intention, and I hope they succeed in doing so by whatever means can be used to obtain that result.

[ippy]

I don't think there is subterfuge going on, ippy: those seeking to stop Brexit are clearly indicating their intention, and I hope they succeed in doing so by whatever means can be used to obtain that result.

I can easily understand your pov Gordon.

As you can see from the endless arguments involved the referendum was the only answer all I want is to see the result implemented.

Of course it's not all on the plus side for any point of view all anyone can do is make their own assessment, including any minus points I think overall in the long term outlook for the UK we will thrive and obviously you don't, I think you're side of this endless argument has got it wrong, perhaps remove subterfuge and insert gamesmanship.
ippy

[Gordon]

I can easily understand your pov Gordon.

As you can see from the endless arguments involved the referendum was the only answer all I want is to see the result implemented.

Of course it's not all on the plus side for any point of view all anyone can do is make their own assessment, including any minus points I think overall in the long term outlook for the UK we will thrive and obviously you don't, I think you're side of this endless argument has got it wrong, perhaps remove subterfuge and insert gamesmanship.
ippy

It isn't even gamesmanship, ippy: Brexit must be stopped, and especially now we have an lying fuckwit of a PM and and cabinet now largely consisting of shit-faced weasels (like Truss et al) who now seem determined on a 'no deal' disaster.

[ippy]

It isn't even gamesmanship, ippy: Brexit must be stopped, and especially now we have an lying fuckwit of a PM and and cabinet now largely consisting of shit-faced weasels (like Truss et al) who now seem determined on a 'no deal' disaster.

Again leave or remain is one of those decisions where I don't think you'll find a definitive answer either way and I feel just like you do but visa versa

I'll vote for anyone that gets us out, at the moment it seems that Boris may well do the job if and when we're out I'll be back to having no idea who to vote for because I don't share much with any of them including Boris.

ippy

[Udayana]

Really? What are they?
Because they don't just make themselves poorer.

I am for Remain, mostly for political rather than economic reasons, but the UK remaining in the EU is no longer a feasible proposition (except maybe in the unlikely event of Remain winning with a super-majority in 2nd ref.) 

Given that we will leave, the Withdrawal Agreement as proposed is the best starting point possible. It has been rejected for spurious reasons by leavers determined to leave without any agreement and with maximum disruption. This group now direct the government. I doubt that they would accept any new WA even without the backstop, but I'm certainly not going to suggest any options that might help them.
 
It's done - we will all be poorer, better get used to it.

[Outrider]

For me, it's a poignant irony that, apart from a few exceedingly wealthy free-marketers who stand to profit handsomely from a deregulated Britain outside of the EU, the bulk of the leave voters seem to have been in favour of taking back sovereignty in one manner or another, a return to the one-man, one-vote idea, and that doing so was worth the short- to mid-term financial hit that would result.

That's a judgement call on a personal basis, one that I personally don't agree with.

The manner in which we've been lumped with a lying twat-waffle of a Prime Minister purely through the entirely British electoral rules shows that 'taking back control' lie to be the untruth that it always was. That follows the dismal performance of the voting reform project that resulted in the 'Alternative Vote' referendum in 2011.

There are so many different interpretations of 'taking back control' and 'sovereignty' that trying to come up with a single coherent argument to stand against all of them is impossible - and that's why Remain lost, because they fought one campaign with one goal, whereas Leave fought hundreds (legally and illegally) with different goals, but one stepping stone on the way... and now huge swathes of people who voted in favour of that first step are going to find out that the rest of their plan is never going to materialise.

O.