Brexit - the next steps

[ippy]

I've always thought that Brexit was, primarily, an English disease - this seems to confirm it.

It does seem to be that way Gordon, where I see remain as a disease as much as you see leave as a disease, that's not likely to alter.

Regards, ippy.

[SteveH]

This seems to be no more than a religious mantra that you use to hide your inability to defend your view rationally. Why would you not give a practical negative impact if you could think of one - even if it's just to get people to stop asking?

So it's all about blind faith and tribalism. Ho hum.

Indeed - "We'll have to agree to disagree" or words to that effect are the weasel words used by people who've lost the argument but won't admit it.

[ippy]

Hi Gordon. Just out of interest, do you know what the EU's position was at the time of the 2014 Indyref on whether an independent Scotland could have joined the EU? Was this discussed? If actually Scotland could have rejoined, and I can't think why it could not have, doesn't that mean the vote against independence was for different reasons than staying in the EU?

'It only became contentious, ippy, because a hapless Tory PM (Cameron)'

Couldn't care less all I wanted was the opportunity to have a vote on leave/remain in the EU, leave won.

Regards, ippy.

[ippy]

Indeed - "We'll have to agree to disagree" or words to that effect are the weasel words used by people who've lost the argument but won't admit it.

Suit yourself Steve.

Regards, ippy.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Ipster,

'It only became contentious, ippy, because a hapless Tory PM (Cameron)'

Couldn't care less all I wanted was the opportunity to have a vote on leave/remain in the EU, leave won.

Regards, ippy.

Which "leave" do you think it was that won: the leave promised by the leave campaign (a comprehensive trade deal with the EU before Art 50 invoked, no questions of leaving the single market and/or the customs union, £350m per week for the NHS, technological solution to the Irish border problem, easiest deal in history, the German car industry will tell Merkel what to do etc) the people were actually asked to vote on, or Johnson's hard exit that no-one was asked to vote on?

[Stranger]

Couldn't care less all I wanted was the opportunity to have a vote on leave/remain in the EU, leave won.

And you don't give a damn if people lose their jobs, it costs us countless billions of pounds, the economy crashes, it causes problems in NI again, or the UK itself breaks up. You don't care whether the people really want what's on offer now or about the fact we have a lying, self-serving, incompetent as PM - just so long as you get something that you can't even explain why you want in any practical or rational way.

[ippy]

And you don't give a damn if people lose their jobs, it costs us countless billions of pounds, the economy crashes, it causes problems in NI again, or the UK itself breaks up. You don't care whether the people really want what's on offer now or about the fact we have a lying, self-serving, incompetent as PM - just so long as you get something that you can't even explain why you want in any practical or rational way.

I choose not to have an exchange on this impasse, what would be the point it's not like my words will make any difference to remainers whatever I was to say, try to provoke someone else I have no intention to bite on any remark.

My reasons for voting leave are OK for me I obviously don't see leave has the problems as you think it has otherwise I wouldn't have voted leave.

Obviously with any alteration on the scale of brexit it won't be entirely problem free but obviously some, in this case the majority think leave is the best choice of the two, you don't, that's fine by me but I won't be changing my mind any time soon nor I guess will you.

Where did I say there was anything else I don't care about other than not caring how the leave/remain vote was obtained?

Regards, ippy.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Something I find deeply dispiriting about the whole corrupt scam is that so many of the people who voted leave will be the people who are most hurt by it. Me, I'm lucky enough to have enough to be able to buy quality food, not to have to worry about my factory closing down, (reasonably) secure that g'teed pensions will pay out in a bit etc. While I despise the con men and ignoramuses who lied and misrepresented their way to the referendum result especially for stealing so many opportunities in Europe my children would have had, by and large best guess is that myself and Mrs B will have our life experiences diminished but we'll be ok.

I'm by no means sure though that those who aren't as lucky as we have been but who were conned into voting leave will be anywhere near as ok. With investment decisions postponed or cancelled and businesses closing or being opened elsewhere, a tanking £ raising the prices of food in particular, the US licking its lips at the shit we're going to have to accept in a trade deal once we're going to them cap in hand post Brexit, the irrelevance we'll become when Scotland and possibly other parts of the Union go their own way, god knows what damage done to the Good Friday agreement, and the nasty, intolerant little backwater we're walking blindly toward etc it's those people who will be damaged most of all.

One would think that now anyone can look into the abyss of a hard exit they'd shift to a remain position if there was to be a second referendum, yet the needle seems to have moved very little. Still (albeit with some notable and noble exceptions) the media seems to be asleep at the wheel regarding challenging those who would still say, "that's what the people voted for so we have to deliver it". Like **** that's what people voted for.

And another thing...             

[SteveH]

And you don't give a damn if people lose their jobs, it costs us countless billions of pounds, the economy crashes, it causes problems in NI again, or the UK itself breaks up. You don't care whether the people really want what's on offer now or about the fact we have a lying, self-serving, incompetent as PM - just so long as you get something that you can't even explain why you want in any practical or rational way.

Nah, cos we get back control, innit?

[wigginhall]

The cockerel on the dungheap feels in control; to everybody else it's a pile of shit.

[ippy]

Something I find deeply dispiriting about the whole corrupt scam is that so many of the people who voted leave will be the people who are most hurt by it. Me, I'm lucky enough to have enough to be able to buy quality food, not to have to worry about my factory closing down, (reasonably) secure that g'teed pensions will pay out in a bit etc. While I despise the con men and ignoramuses who lied and misrepresented their way to the referendum result especially for stealing so many opportunities in Europe my children would have had, by and large best guess is that myself and Mrs B will have our life experiences diminished but we'll be ok.

I'm by no means sure though that those who aren't as lucky as we have been but who were conned into voting leave will be anywhere near as ok. With investment decisions postponed or cancelled and businesses closing or being opened elsewhere, a tanking £ raising the prices of food in particular, the US licking its lips at the shit we're going to have to accept in a trade deal once we're going to them cap in hand post Brexit, the irrelevance we'll become when Scotland and possibly other parts of the Union go their own way, god knows what damage done to the Good Friday agreement, and the nasty, intolerant little backwater we're walking blindly toward etc it's those people who will be damaged most of all.

One would think that now anyone can look into the abyss of a hard exit they'd shift to a remain position if there was to be a second referendum, yet the needle seems to have moved very little. Still (albeit with some notable and noble exceptions) the media seems to be asleep at the wheel regarding challenging those who would still say, "that's what the people voted for so we have to deliver it". Like **** that's what people voted for.

And another thing...             

Don't think there was a need for this post of your's Blue virtually the whole of  the news media that might just as well be a bunch of clones with their clone like statements they keep on banging out and they're using as near as dam it the same wording as this post of yours more or less on a daily basis.

The only answer to this impasse I think was the referendum.

We'll never agree on this one. 

Regards, ippy. 

[Gordon]

The only answer to this impasse I think was the referendum.

For crying out loud, ippy, there never was an impasse in 2015/16 - Brexit then was the hope of the lunatic fringe of the Tory party, whom a useless PM thoughtlessly indulged, and you guys have been misled ever since by their baseless lies. I'd have thought that the current political mess, with the now all-to-clear disastrous consequences of 'no-deal' and in terms of social divisiveness Brexit has caused, would be confirmation enough that Brexit as it has emerged is madness.

So it beats me how anyone still support it - but of course they've contracted a bad dose of mindless faith that renders them immune to the facts and they've become highly credulous when they are told what they want to hear (so not too dissimilar to that which you berate theists for).   

[bluehillside Retd.]

Ipster,

Don't think there was a need for this post of your's Blue virtually the whole of  the news media that might just as well be a bunch of clones with their clone like statements they keep on banging out and they're using as near as dam it the same wording as this post of yours more or less on a daily basis.

You've got to be kidding right? Time and again idiots (Francois, Raab et al) or outright liars (Johnson and half his hard right-leaning cabinet) say the most preposterous things on TV and radio and rarely if ever do they get a, "but hang on - that's clearly wrong isn't it because..." in reply. Only this morning I heard John Redwood on radio 4 telling us we should be concentrating on how we're going to spend all that money we won't have to pay any more to the EU. Yet if I said you should stop going to the car boot sale on a Sunday because you'd save the £20 entrance fee even the most dimwitted would say, "yes but what about the £200 you won't make any more because you won't be at the market?", yet challenge came there none.

There are some good journalists asking why the emperor has no clothes (Carole Cadwalladr at the Guardian, James O'Brien at LBC) but they're few and far between. It's precisely because so much of the press has been asleep at the wheel that the con men and incompetents have got away with so much.             

The only answer to this impasse I think was the referendum.

There wasn't an impasse to be answered before the referendum. It was called because Cameron was running scared of UKIP's success and wanted to stem the loss of votes to them in the next GE. The referendum we did have though was so corrupt - false prospectus, illegal funding, meaningless question - that had it been for the local parish council it would have been voided and re-run, let alone not allowed to stand for a hugely important decision like Brexit.   

We'll never agree on this one.

Yes we will, but only when it's too late to do anything about it. When you survey the wreckage of the country we once had and finally concede that Brexit was a disaster then, but only then, will you concede that you made a terrible mistake. Problem is, by then it'll all be too late to do much about it. Then the options would be to continue driving the beaten-up banger down the road, or to apply to rejoin on much, much worse terms than we have now.

And who will the Johnsons, Raabs, Ree-Moggs, Farages, Davies's, Javid's and the rest blame when these options arise? Themselves? Oh no, not at all - it'll all be the fault of the "remoaners" who didn't have enough "faith in the project", who "talked the country down", who "lost but didn't get over it" etc. Never mind that the unicorns were never real - just blame the people who told you they weren't real.

Project fear eh? Project understatement more like.         

[Bramble]

When you survey the wreckage of the country we once had and finally concede that Brexit was a disaster then, but only then, will you concede that you made a terrible mistake.

I wouldn't bet on it. Never underestimate human pride and the need to save face. There will be no shortage of lies and scapegoats to cover up the 'mistake'. It would all have been fine if the EU and the remoaners hadn't betrayed us. Remember, Brexit was supposed to be a 'howl of rage' against the elite. Don't imagine the angry howlers are ever going to give that elite any satisfaction. They'll also want to maintain their nasty habit of mainlining grievance and self-pity. The traitors, quislings and enemies of the people will continue to serve that need very nicely. It's they who will have made the mistake.

[ippy]

Ipster,

You've got to be kidding right? Time and again idiots (Francois, Raab et al) or outright liars (Johnson and half his hard right-leaning cabinet) say the most preposterous things on TV and radio and rarely if ever do they get a, "but hang on - that's clearly wrong isn't it because..." in reply. Only this morning I heard John Redwood on radio 4 telling us we should be concentrating on how we're going to spend all that money we won't have to pay any more to the EU. Yet if I said you should stop going to the car boot sale on a Sunday because you'd save the £20 entrance fee even the most dimwitted would say, "yes but what about the £200 you won't make any more because you won't be at the market?", yet challenge came there none.

There are some good journalists asking why the emperor has no clothes (Carole Cadwalladr at the Guardian, James O'Brien at LBC) but they're few and far between. It's precisely because so much of the press has been asleep at the wheel that the con men and incompetents have got away with so much.             

There wasn't an impasse to be answered before the referendum. It was called because Cameron was running scared of UKIP's success and wanted to stem the loss of votes to them in the next GE. The referendum we did have though was so corrupt - false prospectus, illegal funding, meaningless question - that had it been for the local parish council it would have been voided and re-run, let alone not allowed to stand for a hugely important decision like Brexit.   

Yes we will, but only when it's too late to do anything about it. When you survey the wreckage of the country we once had and finally concede that Brexit was a disaster then, but only then, will you concede that you made a terrible mistake. Problem is, by then it'll all be too late to do much about it. Then the options would be to continue driving the beaten-up banger down the road, or to apply to rejoin on much, much worse terms than we have now.

And who will the Johnsons, Raabs, Ree-Moggs, Farages, Davies's, Javid's and the rest blame when these options arise? Themselves? Oh no, not at all - it'll all be the fault of the "remoaners" who didn't have enough "faith in the project", who "talked the country down", who "lost but didn't get over it" etc. Never mind that the unicorns were never real - just blame the people who told you they weren't real.

Project fear eh? Project understatement more like.       

Like I said, I don't think there's any need to elaborate.

Regards, ippy. 

[ippy]

For crying out loud, ippy, there never was an impasse in 2015/16 - Brexit then was the hope of the lunatic fringe of the Tory party, whom a useless PM thoughtlessly indulged, and you guys have been misled ever since by their baseless lies. I'd have thought that the current political mess, with the now all-to-clear disastrous consequences of 'no-deal' and in terms of social divisiveness Brexit has caused, would be confirmation enough that Brexit as it has emerged is madness.

So it beats me how anyone still support it - but of course they've contracted a bad dose of mindless faith that renders them immune to the facts and they've become highly credulous when they are told what they want to hear (so not too dissimilar to that which you berate theists for).

I'm and never have been a fan of Cameron he just happened to be the person that offered a choice.

It is an impasse at the mo if you like, I won't be arguing with you about that as to the rest well ditto visa versa, more or less.

Regards, ippy.

[Robbie]

Excellent post Bramble, I could 'feel' every word.

[SteveH]

Excellent post Bramble, I could 'feel' every word.

I second that emotion.

[Robbie]

True passion. I copied her post to 'best bits'.

[ad_orientem]

No, you're not - but neither dd a majority of the UK population, or even of the electorate, vote out, as you said in a previous post. It was slightly more than a quarter of the total population, and well under half of the electorate.

So what? Only votes cast count.

[Harrowby Hall]

So what? Only votes cast count.

Nothing really counted - it was only advisory.

[Gordon]

Interesting summary, from earlier this evening, regarding how no-deal might be stopped - even though how best to thwart no-deal is still uncertain there does seem to be enough MPs willing to do so, probably by passing something that requires an A50 extension to be requested if no alternative to no-deal has been agreed by 31st October, rather than see Corbyn become an interim PM.

It will be messy and divisive of course, but then again Brexit wasn't thought through or handled well-enough over the last 3 years for it to be anything other than a shambolic mess.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/17/labour-tory-mps-unite-plot-radical-law-stop-no-deal-brexit 

[ad_orientem]

Nothing really counted - it was only advisory.

Then why have the vote at all? That's EU all over: never listen to the people. Ask the Dutch, Danish and Irish. Federalism whether the people want it or not. That's what the UK voted to reject.

[Harrowby Hall]

Then why have the vote at all?

As has been explained countless times - it was an internal Conservative Party device dreamed up by a foolish party leader and PM to silence the lunatic right wing of his party. Its conception had nothing to do with EU membership and all to do with party discipline. When the "referendum" failed in its intended purpose, Cameron took the cowards way out.

 

That's EU all over: never listen to the people. Ask the Dutch, Danish and Irish. Federalism whether the people want it or not. That's what the UK voted to reject.

The "Referendum" had nothing to do with the EU. Your observation is pointless.  The current situation is the product of an incompetent party leader whose only qualification for that post was that his name was not Kenneth Clarke.


NB

Kenneth Clarke is yet another candidate for the role of The Best Prime Minister We Never Had. He was the (probably) best qualified candidate for leader of the Conservative Party after John Major stepped down but his candidature was sabotaged by the Tory right which ensured the elections of William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Howard and David Cameron. Kenneth Clarke has always been an avowed supporter of the EU.

[Stranger]

Then why have the vote at all?

Indeed - it was a stupid thing to put to a referendum - doubly stupid to make in a one-off in/out when nobody had worked out what 'out' would really mean (including those who were campaigning for it).

That's EU all over: never listen to the people. Ask the Dutch, Danish and Irish. Federalism whether the people want it or not. That's what the UK voted to reject.

• The EU is a democracy. It isn't perfect but then neither is the UK (by a long way).
  
  
• Two of the countries you mentioned (Ireland and the Netherlands) have over 90% support for the EU (source).
  
  
• As I mentioned above - Cameron secured a deal that recognised that the UK was not committed to "further political integration into the European Union" and a commitment to amend the treaties accordingly.
  
  
• What's so wrong with federalism anyway?
  
  
• Can you point to any way in which the EU has negatively affected your life?