Author Topic: Brexit - the next steps  (Read 420206 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4225 on: August 20, 2019, 02:24:55 PM »
Stranger,

Quote
So why keep posting about it?

You seem to want to post your views without having them challenged and without having to justify them in any way. You appear to be doing an Alan, you want to keep preaching but you won't engage with the rational arguments...

Ippy's position seems to me to be common among leavers. Essentially it's "EU bad...boo...hiss" etc but when you ask why or what better alternative they think there is there's never an answer. I think it's borne of decades of being lied to by the Mail/Telegraph/Express ("NOW THE EU WANTS STRAIGHT BANANAS SHOCK!") such that there's a non-specific but firm conviction that they're right to hate the EU but no actual explanation for why. That Johnson himself was one of the journalists making this stuff up doesn't help because he's so heavily implicated in the illusion he helped create that he won't back away from it. Perhaps the grown up press or the EU itself should have been much more active about rebutting the nonsense as it appeared, but the tragedy is that's we're now where we are: "Bloody EU - sovereign nation - control immigration - blue passports - make Britain great again" drivel.   
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4226 on: August 20, 2019, 02:33:05 PM »
ippy,

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...and I dare say your ideas about facts are entirely real to you...

You're still not getting it. The facts about Brexit are no more real just to me than the facts of gravity are real just to me. That electoral funding law was broken is a fact to you and to me equally. That a comprehensive trade deal wasn't done before Art 50 was invoked is a fact to you and to me equally. That "there's no question of leaving the single market or the customs union" was a lie to you and to me equally. That....

Need I go on? 
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Stranger

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4227 on: August 20, 2019, 03:08:23 PM »
Their's no point in going into yours or my ideas about brexit I totally detest the remain view as I dare say it's equally the same for remainers probably worse because you lost the vote...

I don't detest the leave view - what a silly attitude!

I think the leave view is misguided and, in many cases, based on misunderstanding and misinformation, and I also think it has now become incredibly tribalistic.

I think a no-deal Brexit has no democratic mandate (for reasons already given) and that it would be extremely foolish and do enormous damage to the country, its economy, and its citizens - especially the less well-off. This is a view that is shared by most experts, by the government's own advisers, and also by many leavers.

I'm perfectly happy to tell people why I think these things and to defend them rationally.

You seem to have nothing but emotion and an "us and them" attitude - which is good evidence for one of the negative consequences of having the referendum in the first place. As many people have pointed out, this wasn't an important issue to most voters prior to 2016 - now it divides the country - and we have people like you saying you "detest" the other view but being unable to even say why...
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ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4228 on: August 21, 2019, 09:35:42 AM »
ippy,

You're still not getting it. The facts about Brexit are no more real just to me than the facts of gravity are real just to me. That electoral funding law was broken is a fact to you and to me equally. That a comprehensive trade deal wasn't done before Art 50 was invoked is a fact to you and to me equally. That "there's no question of leaving the single market or the customs union" was a lie to you and to me equally. That....

Need I go on?

Like I said and I feel just the same as you only from the opposite point of view.

I have no intention of going into any kind of tit for tat never ending argument with anyone about in or out because neither party will be giving way I certainly won't be changing my mind as I dare say you feel much the same only pro-EU.

Regards ippy

ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4229 on: August 21, 2019, 09:40:55 AM »
I don't detest the leave view - what a silly attitude!

I think the leave view is misguided and, in many cases, based on misunderstanding and misinformation, and I also think it has now become incredibly tribalistic.

I think a no-deal Brexit has no democratic mandate (for reasons already given) and that it would be extremely foolish and do enormous damage to the country, its economy, and its citizens - especially the less well-off. This is a view that is shared by most experts, by the government's own advisers, and also by many leavers.

I'm perfectly happy to tell people why I think these things and to defend them rationally.

You seem to have nothing but emotion and an "us and them" attitude - which is good evidence for one of the negative consequences of having the referendum in the first place. As many people have pointed out, this wasn't an important issue to most voters prior to 2016 - now it divides the country - and we have people like you saying you "detest" the other view but being unable to even say why...

An anti-EU ditto to you Stranger!

Regards, ippy.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4230 on: August 21, 2019, 10:16:56 AM »
ippy,

Quote
Like I said and I feel just the same as you only from the opposite point of view.

I have no intention of going into any kind of tit for tat never ending argument with anyone about in or out because neither party will be giving way I certainly won't be changing my mind as I dare say you feel much the same only pro-EU.

You're still not getting it. You can have any point of view you like, What you can't have though is your own facts. As just one example, it is a fact that the leave campaign broke electoral funding law (twice). You may say that you don't care, that you you don't think it made much difference to the outcome, that anything - what you can't say though is that it's not a fact.

And if that weren't bad enough, there are lots more facts too - that the leave campaigners made a series of statements and promises that we now demonstrably know were not true. On Youtube for example you can see Farage, Hannan, Johnson, Leadsom, Davies, Raab and others saying things that were categorically wrong. Again, this is a fact - whether or not you think it's a fact that matters we can discuss, but you cannot just hand wave away that it is a fact.

Here's another one - no-one was ever asked whether they'd prefer to remain in the EU or to have instead the no deal exit we seem to be heading toward. That's another fact, and yet somehow we're told that we should honour the "will of the people" when "the people" were never asked that question.

And that's a fact too.       
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Stranger

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4231 on: August 21, 2019, 10:46:10 AM »
An anti-EU ditto to you Stranger!

Which kind of proves my point. I'm happy to discuss my reasoning and the facts of the matter and you're not.

Ho hum.
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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4232 on: August 21, 2019, 10:54:18 AM »
As I've said before many times the decision to leave or remain is mainly achieved by doing your own sum of overall judgement of all of the facts as as each individual sees them
OK, so tell us some facts that justify this train wreck.

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SteveH

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4233 on: August 21, 2019, 10:57:55 AM »
OK, so tell us some facts that justify this train wreck.
Take back control - bent bananas - blue passports - World War Two - cheese-eating surrender monkeys...
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4234 on: August 21, 2019, 11:04:45 AM »
Steve H,

Quote
Take back control - bent bananas - blue passports - World War Two - cheese-eating surrender monkeys...

A German soldier nicked my Grandad's bike...
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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4235 on: August 21, 2019, 11:05:20 AM »
Like I said and I feel just the same as you only from the opposite point of view.

I have no intention of going into any kind of tit for tat never ending argument with anyone about in or out because neither party will be giving way I certainly won't be changing my mind as I dare say you feel much the same only pro-EU.

Regards ippy

But you are pro Brexit, you should be happily telling us all the ways we are going to be better off. But I see nothing from you except "I'm not getting into any arguments".  I'm beginning to suspect that you actually don't know any ways in which we will all be better off.

OK to tell the truth, I am not beginning to suspect: I've known for sure ever since I asked you to tell me one way in which you will be better off about twenty pages back and you did nothing but deflect.

From where I stand we are heading for disaster, so please, for the love of dog, tell me what there is for me or you personally to be optimistic about.
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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4236 on: August 21, 2019, 11:07:21 AM »
Take back control - bent bananas - blue passports - World War Two - cheese-eating surrender monkeys...

I know the bent banana story is a lie told by our current prime minister, but nobody ever really answered the question about what is so bad about straight bananas.
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Anchorman

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4237 on: August 21, 2019, 11:16:58 AM »
I know the bent banana story is a lie told by our current prime minister, but nobody ever really answered the question about what is so bad about straight bananas.
[
Most bananas came out years ago.

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4238 on: August 21, 2019, 11:22:44 AM »
jeremy,

Quote
I know the bent banana story is a lie told by our current prime minister, but nobody ever really answered the question about what is so bad about straight bananas.

They don't come back when you throw them?
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jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4239 on: August 21, 2019, 11:52:39 AM »
jeremy,

They don't come back when you throw them?

To quote Queen Elizabeth

Quote
Well, that's no good, is it; because when I throw things away, I don't want them to come back!
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Stranger

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4240 on: August 21, 2019, 12:08:45 PM »
Take back control - bent bananas - blue passports - World War Two - cheese-eating surrender monkeys...

Don't forget the "great war against the British prawn cocktail flavour crisp"!

[This was actually another blatant lie by our PM, which he repeated in 2016.]
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ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4241 on: August 21, 2019, 03:45:42 PM »
ippy,

You're still not getting it. You can have any point of view you like, What you can't have though is your own facts. As just one example, it is a fact that the leave campaign broke electoral funding law (twice). You may say that you don't care, that you you don't think it made much difference to the outcome, that anything - what you can't say though is that it's not a fact.

And if that weren't bad enough, there are lots more facts too - that the leave campaigners made a series of statements and promises that we now demonstrably know were not true. On Youtube for example you can see Farage, Hannan, Johnson, Leadsom, Davies, Raab and others saying things that were categorically wrong. Again, this is a fact - whether or not you think it's a fact that matters we can discuss, but you cannot just hand wave away that it is a fact.

Here's another one - no-one was ever asked whether they'd prefer to remain in the EU or to have instead the no deal exit we seem to be heading toward. That's another fact, and yet somehow we're told that we should honour the "will of the people" when "the people" were never asked that question.

And that's a fact too.     

The Ref was in or out and remain has somewhere in the late nineties percentage wise of the whole of the media on side which should more than compensate for most of the perceived grievances you've referred to. (there is a valid counter to this particular point about funding you have mentioned but I'ts still not my intention to launch any clay pidgins this day or any other). 

With all of that media on the side of remain and the remain side still hasn't managed to achieve a runaway certainty of numbers on side.

Regards, ippy.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4242 on: August 21, 2019, 04:24:26 PM »
The Ref was in or out and remain has somewhere in the late nineties percentage wise of the whole of the media on side which should more than compensate for most of the perceived grievances you've referred to.
No they didn't.

Broadcast media are required by law to be unbiased.

And the print media were disproportionately pro-leave both in terms of numbers of newspapers, but even more so in terms of circulation.

So the pro leave papers were
Daily Mail
Daily Express
Daily Star
The Sun
Daily Telegraph

Pro remain were
Daily Mirror
The Guardian
Financial Times

The Times was effectively balanced in its coverage

See http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2016-05-23-uk-newspapers-positions-brexit

And then of course there is the whole on-line minefield in which the involvement of Cambridge Analytica and other shady organisations provided a huge boost to the leave side.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4243 on: August 21, 2019, 04:37:40 PM »
With all of that media on the side of remain and the remain side still hasn't managed to achieve a runaway certainty of numbers on side.
More evidence of the non-sense of your claims, from:

https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2018-11/UK_Press_Coverage_of_the_%20EU_Referendum.pdf

'• Of the articles focused on the referendum 41% were pro Leave as against 27% pro Remain, marking a dominant pro Brexit bias.

• Six out of nine newspapers had this dominance of pro Leave articles, with the strongest positions in the Daily Express, followed by the Daily Mail and the Sun. The Daily Mirror had the highest share of Remain articles, followed by the Guardian and the Financial Times. All newspapers, whether predominantly pro Leave or pro Remain, included some articles from a different point of view but this proportion was smallest in the pro Leave Daily Express.

• After factoring in the reach of different newspapers the pro Brexit bias is further accentuated, with 48% of all referendum focused articles pro Leave and just 22% Remain.'

Yup you are correct there was media bias - massively in favour of leave.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4244 on: August 21, 2019, 05:57:54 PM »
Prof,

Quote
More evidence of the non-sense of your claims, from:

https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2018-11/UK_Press_Coverage_of_the_%20EU_Referendum.pdf

'• Of the articles focused on the referendum 41% were pro Leave as against 27% pro Remain, marking a dominant pro Brexit bias.

• Six out of nine newspapers had this dominance of pro Leave articles, with the strongest positions in the Daily Express, followed by the Daily Mail and the Sun. The Daily Mirror had the highest share of Remain articles, followed by the Guardian and the Financial Times. All newspapers, whether predominantly pro Leave or pro Remain, included some articles from a different point of view but this proportion was smallest in the pro Leave Daily Express.

• After factoring in the reach of different newspapers the pro Brexit bias is further accentuated, with 48% of all referendum focused articles pro Leave and just 22% Remain.'

Yup you are correct there was media bias - massively in favour of leave.

Yeah, but you can prove anything with facts. What ippy has though is belief so, you know...
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ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4245 on: August 21, 2019, 06:06:24 PM »
Give this 'Apha News' a go they're taking a poll: 

The question is:

Would you consider it to be a good or bad outcome if Britain left the EU without any deal?

There's a choice of options to vote for.

Regards to all, ippy.

Gordon

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4246 on: August 21, 2019, 06:37:29 PM »
Give this 'Apha News' a go they're taking a poll: 

The question is:

Would you consider it to be a good or bad outcome if Britain left the EU without any deal?

There's a choice of options to vote for.

Regards to all, ippy.

Do you have a link?

I do hope there is an option of 'likely catastrofuck'.

jeremyp

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4247 on: August 21, 2019, 07:40:00 PM »
I'ts still not my intention to launch any clay pidgins this day or any other). 

Why are you still bothering to post here?  You’re explicitly not engaging with our arguments. You’re refusing to make any arguments of your own. It seems your entire MO is just to say “we won, you lost”. Why are you posting?

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4248 on: August 22, 2019, 07:35:19 AM »
Give this 'Apha News' a go they're taking a poll: 

The question is:

Would you consider it to be a good or bad outcome if Britain left the EU without any deal?

There's a choice of options to vote for.

Regards to all, ippy.
No response to my actual evidence that demonstrates that the media was massively biased in favour of leave - wonder why that would be.

To reiterate, when you factor in number of articles and the reach of the article (physical and on-line), then 48% of all referendum focused articles were pro Leave and just 22% Remain. So that is over two to one in favour of leave.

ippy

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Re: Brexit - the next steps
« Reply #4249 on: August 22, 2019, 11:53:10 AM »
Do you have a link?

I do hope there is an option of 'likely catastrofuck'.

Beg your pud I should have indicated that this poll was on YouTube.

Regards, ippy.