Brexit - the next steps

[ProfessorDavey]

Beg your pud I should have indicated that this poll was on YouTube.

Regards, ippy.

Note you are still ignoring my actual evidence that demonstrates a huge bias in favour of leave from the print media.

[Spud]

An LBC caller said that the main reason for people voting to leave was that as an EU member the UK's population is increasing too fast and that public services are too stretched. He said the country doesn't have enough space for this increasing population and that to cope, more and more infrastructure has to be built, which is damaging to the environment.

[ippy]

An LBC caller said that the main reason for people voting to leave was that as an EU member the UK's population is increasing too fast and that public services are too stretched. He said the country doesn't have enough space for this increasing population and that to cope, more and more infrastructure has to be built, which is damaging to the environment.

Yes that would be a part of the whole sum total of reasons most want to leave for.

Regards, ippy.

[Gordon]

An LBC caller said that the main reason for people voting to leave was that as an EU member the UK's population is increasing too fast and that public services are too stretched. He said the country doesn't have enough space for this increasing population and that to cope, more and more infrastructure has to be built, which is damaging to the environment.

As far as I know, Spud, there is plenty of room here in Scotland so perhaps looking at Brexit via LBC is too narrow a view.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ippy,

Yes that would be a part of the whole sum total of reasons most want to leave for.

Again, you don't know that "most" want to leave. What you mean there is that most of the people who voted in a referendum on a specific day three years ago (but who were told that the options actually on the table now would never happen) wanted to leave then. Just. 

And if that is a reason, then it's a very bad one. Healthcare and similar services are stretched because of a deliberate government policy of austerity (essentially forcing the poorest and most vulnerable in society to pick up the tab run up by some of the wealthiest in society who drove the economy off a cliff back in 2008). We could readily choose to train more people and to build more facilities using some of the considerable excess tax contribution that immigrants make compared with the relatively modest cost they add to basic services.   

[Stranger]

Yes that would be a part of the whole sum total of reasons most want to leave for.

Yes - believing xenophobic propaganda probably was a factor for many.

Any chance of any real reasons why the EU is so terrible - or do we just get more of your evidence-free assertions and refusal to engage in reason?

[Udayana]

An LBC caller said that the main reason for people voting to leave was that as an EU member the UK's population is increasing too fast and that public services are too stretched. He said the country doesn't have enough space for this increasing population and that to cope, more and more infrastructure has to be built, which is damaging to the environment.

Some leave voters may have thought that, but it doesn't bear up. The main reason for population increase is that people are living longer. At the same time fertility rates have crashed to well below replacement level - this creates demand for immigrants. Without immigration public services would be cut further.

After brexit European immigration will likely fall, but be replaced by non-EU immigration.

[jeremyp]

An LBC caller said that the main reason for people voting to leave was that as an EU member the UK's population is increasing too fast

Why is being in the EU making our population increase too fast?

How fast is it increasing and what evidence is there that that is too fast?

and that public services are too stretched.

I agree with that, but the reason why they are so stretched is because the British government does not put enough money into them.

He said the country doesn't have enough space for this increasing population and that to cope, more and more infrastructure has to be built, which is damaging to the environment.

Did he think that these people stop having an environmental impact if they don't live in Britain? Britain is a rich country. We can afford to expand our infrastructure in environmentally friendly ways. Other countries cannot. For example, we can increase power generation to cope with more people with wind farms and solar. In China, they'd just build another coal fired station.

[jeremyp]

Another point about immigration. People want to live in Britain because it is relatively rich. That's why we have immigration. There are two ways to stop immigration.

You can try to make the countries from which they come more attractive. This is part of the aim of the EU although, the Euro is really not helping there.

The other way is to make your own country relatively poorer. Obviously you don't want to do that deliberately, but it did happen in the 80's. In that decade, people who couldn't get jobs here could emigrate to other EU countries (see Auf Weiderzehn Pet). This option will not be open to us in the economic downturn following Brexit.

[jeremyp]

looking at Brexit via LBC is too narrow a view.

Actually I think LBC's editorial policy is pro EU. If you look on youtube you can find many examples of pro Brexit callers to James O'Brian's show on LBC being eviscerated by its host.

[Gordon]

Actually I think LBC's editorial policy is pro EU. If you look on youtube you can find many examples of pro Brexit callers to James O'Brian's show on LBC being eviscerated by its host.

No doubt, and I concede that LBC isn't on my regular listening list (for obvious reasons).

[Spud]

"build more facilities"
I'm aware of that, blue, I'm just saying some people might not like the idea of more and more building. This was my view but in hindsight I feel that the EU probably won't expand much more in the future, so that immigration will level out. The sudden inclusion of Eastern Europe has been a shock which has led to anti-EU feeling. Once the shock subsides there may be more positive ness.

[bluehillside Retd.]

jeremy,

Actually I think LBC's editorial policy is pro EU. If you look on youtube you can find many examples of pro Brexit callers to James O'Brian's show on LBC being eviscerated by its host.

Actually it isn't - their presenters (who include Farage by the way) are allowed to express their views in a partisan way. James O'Brien is superb by the way - well worth a listen.

[Sriram]

How can Johnson do something like that....?!   

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/uks-boris-johnson-puts-his-feet-up-in-french-president-emmanuel-macrons-palace-2089073?pfrom=home-featured

[Nearly Sane]

How can Johnson do something like that....?!   

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/uks-boris-johnson-puts-his-feet-up-in-french-president-emmanuel-macrons-palace-2089073?pfrom=home-featured

Seems it may not be as bad as it appeared

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49440952

[SteveH]

Still bloody stupid of him, with an army of photographers yards away (you can see them in the mirror here, after you've got rid of all the fucking adverts). He should've known it'd be photogrphed and used to make him look bad.

[Nearly Sane]

But the people who will react to it are the people who don't like him anyway. He doesn't care about your vote because he isn't going to get it. And latest polling indicates a Tory victory if there were to be an election.

[ippy]

ippy,

Again, you don't know that "most" want to leave. What you mean there is that most of the people who voted in a referendum on a specific day three years ago (but who were told that the options actually on the table now would never happen) wanted to leave then. Just. 

And if that is a reason, then it's a very bad one. Healthcare and similar services are stretched because of a deliberate government policy of austerity (essentially forcing the poorest and most vulnerable in society to pick up the tab run up by some of the wealthiest in society who drove the economy off a cliff back in 2008). We could readily choose to train more people and to build more facilities using some of the considerable excess tax contribution that immigrants make compared with the relatively modest cost they add to basic services.   

Yes Blue I have to agree with your reasoning that if that one particular reason on its own was the only reason to vote leave it wouldn't be enough of a good reason, but taken as one of many reasons, well.

I can see why anyone that wanted to remain it wouldn't matter what, seemingly reasonable to a leaver, reason put forward appears to be just the opposite.

We'll always remain at opposite polls on this one; there you go that's life.

Regards ippy

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi ippy,

Yes Blue I have to agree with your reasoning that if that one particular reason on its own was the only reason to vote leave it wouldn't be enough of a good reason, but taken as one of many reasons, well.

That wasn’t my reasoning though. My reasoning is that the “reason on its own” is in fact false. Shortages of school places, of doctors’ appointments etc aren’t a function of immigration at all – they’re a function of austerity, and in particular of not spending enough of the taxes that immigrants pay on the services they require. You can’t therefore take it as one of many reasons when it’s a bad reason to start with.   

I can see why anyone that wanted to remain it wouldn't matter what, seemingly reasonable to a leaver, reason put forward appears to be just the opposite.

It’s got nothing to do with whether someone is a leaver or a remainer – rather it’s to do with the facts, regardless of what people would like a referendum decision to be.

We'll always remain at opposite polls on this one; there you go that's life.

Probably, but what’s disappointing is that you’ve effectively styled yourself in respect of Brexit as AB has in respect of his god. When asked why you think something is true (ie, that leaving is a good idea) you tell us that it’s a belief you hold irrevocably, but you can’t tell us why. And when you do try to suggest why and the reason is falsified (see above), rather than concede the point and try to find a different argument to support you you just tell me that we won’t ever agree.

I’m pretty sure that I know the reason you voted as you did, though you won’t like it: after decades of most of the press lying to you about the awfulness of the EU you have an entrenched position that it must therefore be awful, but because there are no facts to support that you can only rely on “it just is and we’ll never agree” for your rationale.   

[ippy]

Hi ippy,

That wasn’t my reasoning though. My reasoning is that the “reason on its own” is in fact false. Shortages of school places, of doctors’ appointments etc aren’t a function of immigration at all – they’re a function of austerity, and in particular of not spending enough of the taxes that immigrants pay on the services they require. You can’t therefore take it as one of many reasons when it’s a bad reason to start with.   

It’s got nothing to do with whether someone is a leaver or a remainer – rather it’s to do with the facts, regardless of what people would like a referendum decision to be.

Probably, but what’s disappointing is that you’ve effectively styled yourself in respect of Brexit as AB has in respect of his god. When asked why you think something is true (ie, that leaving is a good idea) you tell us that it’s a belief you hold irrevocably, but you can’t tell us why. And when you do try to suggest why and the reason is falsified (see above), rather than concede the point and try to find a different argument to support you you just tell me that we won’t ever agree.

I’m pretty sure that I know the reason you voted as you did, though you won’t like it: after decades of most of the press lying to you about the awfulness of the EU you have an entrenched position that it must therefore be awful, but because there are no facts to support that you can only rely on “it just is and we’ll never agree” for your rationale.   

Yes your post underlines the fact we'll never see eye to eye on this one and yes austerity would obviously be a part of the problem just as the excessive numbers involved in the UK's recent history of immigration doesn't exactly help when the two inextricable influences are added together which, surprisingly, I wouldn't have thought I would have needed to explain in any way involving more clarity to such as yourself.

I don't mind being accused of anything in particular to do with this subject because I've been reading the posts and it's obvious any leave posts are seen a clay pidgins for the remain side of brexit and the results only end up as endless roundabout sessions that I'm not that keen to take part in.

I feel that my reasons for voting leave make remain seem irrational in I dare say the same way you feel about voting leave both sides from my pov look well reasoned out generally but my version of the two column exercise for and against there's no question as I see it; leave.

I'm sure you've maybe done some sort of similar sum where it ends up we don't agree I don't see this decision as some sort of deep intellectual exercise, where the well educated have some sort of extra knowledge beyond the reach  of the less academic, it's definitely outside of that sort of area for me.

There has been that, 'leavers didn't really know what they're voting for', saying and I didn't find that offensive either I did feel and still do feel more sorry for those who say such things.

Regards, ippy.       

[Stranger]

Yes your post underlines the fact we'll never see eye to eye on this one and yes austerity would obviously be a part of the problem just as the excessive numbers involved in the UK's recent history of immigration doesn't exactly help when the two inextricable influences are added together which, surprisingly, I wouldn't have thought I would have needed to explain in any way involving more clarity to such as yourself.

Except immigration doesn't add to the problem, it actually improves the situation:

The average EEA migrant arriving in 2016 will contribute a discounted total of around £78,000 to the UK public finances over his or her lifetime. Overall, the future net contribution of 2016 arrivals alone to the UK public finances is estimated at £25bn. Had there been no immigration at all in 2016, the rest of us would have had, over time, to find £25bn, through higher taxes, public service cuts, or higher borrowing.

Immigration has made the UK more productive and prosperous - and will again in the future

I feel that my reasons for voting leave make remain seem irrational in I dare say the same way you feel about voting leave both sides from my pov look well reasoned out generally but my version of the two column exercise for and against there's no question as I see it; leave.

So why can't you give us any actual reasons that were in your leave column?

So far, we've had the EU court - but you won't say why that's a bad thing, the "federal Europe" and "ever closer union" - which you also can't say why it's bad, and you've ignored the opt-out, and now immigration - which seems to be based on falsehoods....

[ippy]

Except immigration doesn't add to the problem, it actually improves the situation:

The average EEA migrant arriving in 2016 will contribute a discounted total of around £78,000 to the UK public finances over his or her lifetime. Overall, the future net contribution of 2016 arrivals alone to the UK public finances is estimated at £25bn. Had there been no immigration at all in 2016, the rest of us would have had, over time, to find £25bn, through higher taxes, public service cuts, or higher borrowing.

Immigration has made the UK more productive and prosperous - and will again in the future

So why can't you give us any actual reasons that were in your leave column?

So far, we've had the EU court - but you won't say why that's a bad thing, the "federal Europe" and "ever closer union" - which you also can't say why it's bad, and you've ignored the opt-out, and now immigration - which seems to be based on falsehoods....

Now that's where we do agree on when or if we were referring to reasonable amounts of immigration but then eventually with the passing of time guess what? (Ever heard of the pyramid system?) Anyway as I keep on reiterating do you really think either of us will be changing our minds on Brexit? I very much doubt it.

In post 4269 on this thread please find my reference to clay pidgins.

Anyway best wishes to you, ippy.

[jeremyp]

Yes your post underlines the fact we'll never see eye to eye on this one and yes austerity would obviously be a part of the problem just as the excessive numbers involved in the UK's recent history of immigration doesn't exactly help when the two inextricable influences are added together which, surprisingly, I wouldn't have thought I would have needed to explain in any way involving more clarity to such as yourself.

I don't mind being accused of anything in particular to do with this subject because I've been reading the posts and it's obvious any leave posts are seen a clay pidgins for the remain side of brexit and the results only end up as endless roundabout sessions that I'm not that keen to take part in.

I feel that my reasons for voting leave make remain seem irrational in I dare say the same way you feel about voting leave both sides from my pov look well reasoned out generally but my version of the two column exercise for and against there's no question as I see it; leave.

I'm sure you've maybe done some sort of similar sum where it ends up we don't agree I don't see this decision as some sort of deep intellectual exercise, where the well educated have some sort of extra knowledge beyond the reach  of the less academic, it's definitely outside of that sort of area for me.

There has been that, 'leavers didn't really know what they're voting for', saying and I didn't find that offensive either I did feel and still do feel more sorry for those who say such things.

Regards, ippy.     

Austerity isn’t part of the problem, it’s the whole problem. Immigrants to the UK pay more taxes than locally born citizens. They tend to come here as adults fully educated. If they can’t find work, some of them go home. When they retire, some of them go home.

The NHS would actually be worse of without immigrants because they pay more and use it less.

Incidentally, governments have long known this and it’s one reason why they fail to control immigration - they want more immigrants.

[Stranger]

Now that's where we do agree on when or if we were referring to reasonable amounts of immigration...

It was an analysis of the actual immigration in 2016 - there is no "if" involved.

...but then eventually with the passing of time guess what?

I give up - what?

Anyway as I keep on reiterating do you really think either of us will be changing our minds on Brexit? I very much doubt it.

Back to your avoidance tactic. I remind you that you still haven't come up with any actual reason why the EU is bad or why leaving would be good....

[Anchorman]

  So, you might need your passport to cross the Channel? Bloomin' Brexit. But, hey, them Egyptian chappies beat you to it...... Combining a moan about Brexit with Egyptology...there's a first! https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-famous-people/mummy-passport-0010944