Brexit - the next steps

[wigginhall]

I do wish some posters would stop saying that remainers are bitter. I am not bitter. I am petrified. It is likely in my opinion that we are going to be, sooner or later, forced into a no-deal by the new Brexit Tories and a future government is going to be led by Boris Johnson and his sidekicks ReesMogg and Javid amongst others.

No deal is undesirable for all sorts of reasons. But it's fucking terrifying with these clowns in charge.

Yes, it's the prospect of a hard right English nationalism, that is scary.  Presumably, it will advocate low tax, deregulation, and cuddles with Trump.  I don't know how we have got here, but then how did the Reichstag fire happen?

[Roses]

Yes, it's the prospect of a hard right English nationalism, that is scary.  Presumably, it will advocate low tax, deregulation, and cuddles with Trump.  I don't know how we have got here, but then how did the Reichstag fire happen?

I agree. The idea of nationalistic little englanders in control is more than scary.

[Udayana]

Seems, from what Javid is saying as reported by the Guardian's live politics blog, the Tories will obey the law (the preventing no deal bill) and that Johnson won't ask for an extension. One wonders if this is just bluster for the benefit of Tory voters or if they have some as yet unknown alternative that somehow negates this new bill.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/sep/08/brexit-boris-johnson-amber-rudd-resignation-live-news

It could be that the passing of the no no-deal bill has finally given the brexiters an incentive to actually look for a "deal"?

Why is it that, with the main parties having policies of implementing the referendum result, over three years later a second referendum is needed?
 - Because those with an objective of no-deal have "thwarted" leaving on a reasonable basis.

[ekim]

An interesting article ..... https://tinyurl.com/yyaqo8wx

[Spud]

The best thing to do now is to legislate so that we can't leave the EU unless a deal is agreed. Stop throwing money into preparing for no deal.

[Roses]

The best thing to do now is to legislate so that we can't leave the EU unless a deal is agreed. Stop throwing money into preparing for no deal.

Agreed.

[Anchorman]

Another sparkling comment from the Wee Ginger Dug, discussing "To obey or not to obey" the law, but mainly the increasing divergance of the elements in a disunited kingdom. https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/09/08/the-widening-chasms/

[ippy]

I refer to them as a mantra because you keep repeating them and ignoring the actual points being made. Much the same reason I refer to (for example) AB's statements of faith in that way.

I've no idea because you won't tell me what your arguments are and you won't actually address mine.

Shuddering is rather irrelevant - what about actual, down to earth, practical reasons that you could tell somebody who faces losing their job or shortages of vital medicines, to convince them that it's worth it?

The referendum was for leave or remain, surly we should be leaving whilst at the same time you are perfectly free to discuss the various arguments you think should have won the day.

We should now be dealing with the details of any necessary arrangements that need to be dealt with on having left? But no the remainers are doing their very best to turn over the referendum result.

Why should I be having a pointless argument with anyone on line or anywhere else, I accept in your terms you think you have the argument, we don't agree on that leave won we should be leaving while you continue with your, irrelevant to me, arguments, neither of us are ever likely to see eye to eye on this one.

There are bound to be winners and losers with something as large scale as leaving the EU, but there again we're unlikely to agree there on the long term results of leaving the EU.

Regards, ippy.

 

[ippy]

Yes - quite clearly those voting in 2016 had inadequate information, and there is now more information. Brexit hasn't happened yet and all those who have attained their 18th birthday since the 2016 referendum have had no opportunity to express their views, and in the interim the views of those who voted in 2016 but have died since are no longer relevant (they aren't aware of recent developments, for obvious reasons), and we now have a duplicitous lying incompetent as PM and an impasse in Westminster.

So lots of reasons to re-check the views of the electorate, where the 'the public want this done' is no more than an assertion since what the public currently thinks is untested. Given the stramash surrounding the next GE it might make sense, once the immediate risk of no-deal is removed, to have a second referendum before the next GE so that political parties and the general public are all clear on the what the current views of the electorate are, as opposed to clinging to position in 2016.

As you know leave won the referendum and that should have made any of your arguments irrelevant.

Regards, ippy.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Ispter,

The referendum was for leave or remain, surly we should be leaving whilst at the same time you are perfectly free to discuss the various arguments you think should have won the day.

If you leave somewhere then necessarily you have to go somewhere else. The somewhere else promised by the leave campaign is now shown starkly to be bollocks, and the somewhere else described by the remain campaign (and dismissed by leave as “project fear”) is, if anything, project understatement.

If I offered to sell you my brand new, £250k super car for £5k and you bought it, but when it arrived it was in fact a rusty old banger would you be content for me to keep the money because you had made your decision on the basis of the information I gave you? Why not?

We should now be dealing with the details of any necessary arrangements that need to be dealt with on having left? But no the remainers are doing their very best to turn over the referendum result.

Yes – for the same reason you'd want to turn over your car buying decision.

Why should I be having a pointless argument with anyone on line or anywhere else, I accept in your terms you think you have the argument, we don't agree on that leave won we should be leaving while you continue with your, irrelevant to me, arguments, neither of us are ever likely to see eye to eye on this one.

There are bound to be winners and losers with something as large scale as leaving the EU, but there again we're unlikely to agree there on the long term results of leaving the EU.

Yes the winners are the Russians who paid for it and the fund managers who’ve bet on the British economy tanking, and the losers are the rest of us who will suffer the consequences.

[Udayana]

As you know leave won the referendum and that should have made any of your arguments irrelevant.

Regards, ippy.

Turn off the BBC and just assume we have left already. Would you notice any difference?

[jeremyp]

As you know leave won the referendum and that should have made any of your arguments irrelevant.

It's like a family having a vote on whether to move house or not. Dad and sister Ray said they should move house and they won the majority. The family is set to move out on October 31 but it transpires that nobody has found a new house to live in. Not only that, but Dad and sister Ray cannot agree on what kind of house to move to. So the choice is delay the move or become homeless.

I guess the answer is they have to become homeless because DEMOCRATIC VOTE.

You Brexiteers are absolutely barmy. Please stop this, it's destroying us.

[jeremyp]

Turn off the BBC and just assume we have left already. Would you notice any difference?

Of course he wouldn't. He's been repeatedly asked how his life will improve after Brexit and how the EU made it worse for him and he has come up with nothing.

[Gordon]

As you know leave won the referendum and that should have made any of your arguments irrelevant.

Regards, ippy.

Let's put it this way: I do hope you leave merchants end up disappointed. If not, then at least Scottish independence will be that little bit closer.

[Outrider]

The referendum was for leave or remain, surly we should be leaving whilst at the same time you are perfectly free to discuss the various arguments you think should have won the day.

Which leave? The one were lied to about prior to the referendum, funded on multiple fronts with illegal campaign finances that unbalanced the field, or the one that's being posited now?

We should now be dealing with the details of any necessary arrangements that need to be dealt with on having left? But no the remainers are doing their very best to turn over the referendum result.

Why crash out and do untold damage when you can put the arrangements in place AND STILL LEAVE?

Why should I be having a pointless argument with anyone on line or anywhere else, I accept in your terms you think you have the argument, we don't agree on that leave won we should be leaving while you continue with your, irrelevant to me, arguments, neither of us are ever likely to see eye to eye on this one.

Perhaps because, deep down, there isn't actually a logical argument in favour of leave, it's all wishful thinking about halcyon days when our blue passports were enough to catch fish where we damned well pleased!

There are bound to be winners and losers with something as large scale as leaving the EU, but there again we're unlikely to agree there on the long term results of leaving the EU.

Well, no, either we're all winners or we're all losers, because we don't get to choose individual, we're in this together.  If, collectively, we accept that the result of the vote was for financial and cultural vandalism to go ahead, well then we all lose together.

O.

[ippy]

Let's put it this way: I do hope you leave merchants end up disappointed. If not, then at least Scottish independence will be that little bit closer.

As a pro Scot Englishman, (my maternal Grandfather was a Scot), I would rather the Scots stayed in the UK but if you must leave if that's what the majority of Scots want, now I've heard of something else very similar to that somewhere?

Wasn't it the 'Scotties', an Irish tribe that emigrated to the northern part of this shared island of ours somewhere in the distant past? I'm sure I read that somewhere?

Regards, ippy.

[Roses]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49639828

Bercow is to stand down as speaker at the next election or October 31st, whichever is sooner.

[Gordon]

As a pro Scot Englishman, (my maternal Grandfather was a Scot), I would rather the Scots stayed in the UK but if you must leave if that's what the majority of Scots want, now I've heard of something else very similar to that somewhere?

To paraphrase the Scottish actor Brian Cox, on Question Time a while back, separation from England (and England is the problem as regards Brexit) isn't the same thing as separation from the EU.

It seems to me, from a Scottish perspective, that you guys in England are listening to a different political drum these days - and if you can't drum out the Tories and their Brexit madness then I see no future in the UK.

[Aruntraveller]

It seems to me, from a Scottish perspective, that you guys in England are listening to a different political drum these days - and if you can't drum out the Tories and their Brexit madness then I see no future in the UK.

Don't generalise.

Only some of us have fallen for this flim flam.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gordon,

To paraphrase the Scottish actor Brian Cox, on Question Time a while back, separation from England (and England is the problem as regards Brexit) isn't the same thing as separation from the EU.

It seems to me, from a Scottish perspective, that you guys in England are listening to a different political drum these days - and if you can't drum out the Tories and their Brexit madness then I see no future in the UK.

Just to say that "you guys" was about a third of the electorate, and an unknowably smaller number than that would not have voted leave if they'd thought a no deal exit would be the outcome. I for one resolutely am not one of "you guys"! 

[Gordon]

Don't generalise.

Only some of us have fallen for this flim flam.

True - I stand corrected, and perhaps current events involving a duplicitous lying bastard PM (and his associated hangers-on) will cause the penny to drop among more and more Brexit enthusiasts. 

[Gordon]

Gordon,

Just to say that "you guys" was about a third of the electorate, and an unknowably smaller number than that would not have voted leave if they'd thought a no deal exit would be the outcome. I for one resolutely am not one of "you guys"!

As I said to Trent, I stand corrected and do realise that not all elsewhere in the UK are pro-Brexit.

It does get frustrating though, from a Scottish perspective, when it is said that 'the public want this done' and 'the country needs to come together', when here in Scotland Brexit has always been unpopular, and that hasn't changed since 2016. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gordon,

As I said to Trent, I stand corrected and do realise that not all elsewhere in the UK are pro-Brexit.

It does get frustrating though, from a Scottish perspective, when it is said that 'the public want this done' and 'the country needs to come together', when here in Scotland Brexit has always been unpopular, and that hasn't changed since 2016.

Indeed - whenever a no deal politician opens with, "what the people want..." I reach for my blunderbuss.   

[bluehillside Retd.]

Just noticed something Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said to BS Boris earlier that seems quite pointed to me. He (Varadkar) said something like, “a no deal Brexit would have serious consequences for the UK and for Ireland…” and here’s the apparently throwaway line, “…but not so much for Europe”.

The whopping lie the headbanger Brexiters try is that by ruling out a no deal departure Parliament has taken away a key negotiating advantage for the UK because the rest of the EU would be so scared of the prospect that it would make further concessions. That was never the case – the Commission has been clear all along on the inviolability of the four freedoms – but Varadkar’s “Europe not so much” is basically saying, “actually they might not like it but it’s not important enough to sell the farm for”.

Well played Mr Taoiseach.   

[jeremyp]

To paraphrase the Scottish actor Brian Cox, on Question Time a while back, separation from England (and England is the problem as regards Brexit) isn't the same thing as separation from the EU.

It seems to me, from a Scottish perspective, that you guys in England are listening to a different political drum these days - and if you can't drum out the Tories and their Brexit madness then I see no future in the UK.

No. Don’t lump all us English together.

England isn’t the problem. Brexiteers are the problem. And even most of them are only a problem because they have been taken in by the liars that led the campaign.

Also it’s not as if the Scots are unanimous on the subject. Stop making this a conflict between England and Scotland. You’re just making it more divisive.