Brexit - the next steps

[jeremyp]

According to this study, the reason there was a narrow 'Leave' majority in Wales was due to English people who had moved there "Wales was made to look like a Brexit-supporting nation by its English settlers" and it was the 'leave' voting areas in the south of England and not the north that were critical, "The real support for Brexit, in terms of numbers of votes, was in places like Cornwall, which was 57% for leave, Hampshire with 54%, Essex with 62% and Norfolk with 57%. It is those southern English voters that are dragging Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland unwillingly out of Europe".

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

Yeah, that's bullshit.

[Gordon]

In short it's still the majority of UK citizens that voted leave no matter how you look at it, with a free and fair, in or out only, referendum vote.

Wrong.

We have a UK remainer element that wishes to confound, go against or you could say cheat the leavers and rob them of their referendum victory.

Your 'victory' is a pyrrhic one anyway, and hopefully the electorate will get the chance to reverse it given what is now know about how ill-informed they were in 2016, taking into account what is now known about the consequences and also that the key Tory politicians are a bunch of fuckwits. 

[ippy]

Yeah, that's bullshit.

It doesn't matter leave won.

ippy

[ippy]

Still unable to count Ippy I see.

There are approx. 67million UK citizens - by my reckoning just under 26% of UK citizens voted leave - not a majority in anyone's books.

As I said:  'the majority of UK citizens that voted leave'.

ippy

[ippy]

Why the hell should anybody answer your questions? You won't answer ours. Why should we extend that courtesy to you?

It's up to you jp, I can't make you.

ippy

[ippy]

Wrong.

Your 'victory' is a pyrrhic one anyway, and hopefully the electorate will get the chance to reverse it given what is now know about how ill-informed they were in 2016, taking into account what is now known about the consequences and also that the key Tory politicians are a bunch of fuckwits.

Do you know I'd forgotten how stupid us leavers were perhaps forgetting's a part of it.

ippy

[Gordon]

Do you know I'd forgotten how stupid us leavers were perhaps forgetting's a part of it.

ippy

I never said you were stupid, ippy: being ill-informed, as everyone was in 2016 since nobody had done any due diligence on the idea of Brexit, isn't the same thing as being stupid.

What would be stupid though would be to fail to acknowledge and take into account all the information and events that have come to light since, and are currently emerging, all of which does show that any form of Brexit will denude the circumstances of all of us.   

[Nearly Sane]

I think what is constitutionally illiterate is pretending it says anything about referendums.

Thanks for agreeing.

[ProfessorDavey]

As I said:  'the majority of UK citizens that voted leave'.

ippy

No you didn't - you actually said:

'In short it's still the majority of UK citizens that voted leave no matter how you look at it ...'

That is demonstrably untrue - actually about a quarter of UK citizens voted to leave and that is not a majority by any stretch of the imagination.

[Christine]

Hi ippy,

Re controlling immigration: I think you might have been misinformed by the liars who ran the Leave campaign.

https://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2016/11/eu-free-movement-law-in-10-questions.html

This country could have introduced any number of immigration restrictions if it wanted to, as long as it didn't restrict workers moving freely around the EU.  And why would you want to do that?  As usual, the fault, if there is one, lies with UK governments, not EU law.

Now we have Britain First thugs roaming the Kent coastline hunting brown people. 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/far-right-britain-first-patrolling-20095776

The Tories (I count Tony Blair among their number, not sure if that's controversial) have done this to us, not Jeremy Corbyn.  Still, the only major party leader who tries not to lie and hasn't spent his whole political life doing whatever would benefit him personally the most, should stand down in favour of someone the citizenry can get behind. 

[ippy]

No you didn't - you actually said:

'In short it's still the majority of UK citizens that voted leave no matter how you look at it ...'

That is demonstrably untrue - actually about a quarter of UK citizens voted to leave and that is not a majority by any stretch of the imagination.

 I wouldn't have grouped you in with the usual semanticists we have on the forum.

However it's not my fault that the remainers didn't get up off of their backsides to vote.

ippy

[ProfessorDavey]

I wouldn't have grouped you in with the usual semanticists we have on the forum.

So you accept that your claim that:

'In short it's still the majority of UK citizens that voted leave no matter how you look at it ...'

Is a lie.

[ProfessorDavey]

However it's not my fault that the remainers didn't get up off of their backsides to vote.

ippy

Who said anything about people not getting off their backsides - a significant proportion of UK citizens were unable to vote in 2016 and yet they are the group most likely to be detrimentally affected in the years to come by Brexit.

[Nearly Sane]

Hi ippy,

Re controlling immigration: I think you might have been misinformed by the liars who ran the Leave campaign.

https://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2016/11/eu-free-movement-law-in-10-questions.html

This country could have introduced any number of immigration restrictions if it wanted to, as long as it didn't restrict workers moving freely around the EU.  And why would you want to do that?  As usual, the fault, if there is one, lies with UK governments, not EU law.

Now we have Britain First thugs roaming the Kent coastline hunting brown people. 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/far-right-britain-first-patrolling-20095776

The Tories (I count Tony Blair among their number, not sure if that's controversial) have done this to us, not Jeremy Corbyn.  Still, the only major party leader who tries not to lie and hasn't spent his whole political life doing whatever would benefit him personally the most, should stand down in favour of someone the citizenry can get behind.

Labour needs to have a policy people can get behind, The proposal from Corbyn is an enormous guddle.

[Christine]

Labour needs to have a policy people can get behind, The proposal from Corbyn is an enormous guddle.

If guddle means muddle, fair enough, I'm not going to argue that Labour are doing a good job on this or suggest that Corbyn is a good leader.  My last sentence wasn't sarcastic, if that's what you think.  It's obvious that a significant number of people in this country don't think honesty is important.  I do think that Corbyn is in an impossible position and has been since he was elected (twice).

To be fair, if I thought he could get us over this nightmare, I'd welcome Blair back.  (But only on a temporary basis and on condition he surrendered himself to The Hague once it was all over.  Unfortunately, I'm not in charge.)

[jeremyp]

The Tories (I count Tony Blair among their number, not sure if that's controversial)

It is because he's not.

have done this to us, not Jeremy Corbyn.  Still, the only major party leader who tries not to lie and hasn't spent his whole political life doing whatever would benefit him personally the most, should stand down in favour of someone the citizenry can get behind.

Jeremy Corbyn is a Brexiteer. He's also utterly useless and a major impediment (perhaps the only major impediment) to Labour getting in power.

[Nearly Sane]

If guddle means muddle, fair enough, I'm not going to argue that Labour are doing a good job on this or suggest that Corbyn is a good leader.  My last sentence wasn't sarcastic, if that's what you think.  It's obvious that a significant number of people in this country don't think honesty is important.  I do think that Corbyn is in an impossible position and has been since he was elected (twice).

To be fair, if I thought he could get us over this nightmare, I'd welcome Blair back.  (But only on a temporary basis and on condition he surrendered himself to The Hague once it was all over.  Unfortunately, I'm not in charge.)

No, I didn't read you as sarcastic. But changing the leader won't help if the current policy 'remains' as it precisely seems designed to satisfy no one.

[ippy]

I never said you were stupid, ippy: being ill-informed, as everyone was in 2016 since nobody had done any due diligence on the idea of Brexit, isn't the same thing as being stupid.

What would be stupid though would be to fail to acknowledge and take into account all the information and events that have come to light since, and are currently emerging, all of which does show that any form of Brexit will denude the circumstances of all of us.

You didn't but the implication was clearly there and you've no idea whether leavers in general were ill informed or not, admittedly their'll always be some that haven't got a clue, I've never wanted to be in the EU from the start and arguably have as many and as I think have far more numerous and valid reasons to leave than you have to remain.

As I keep trying to get over, neither side, me probably more than most, are unlikely to be changing their minds and you're remain side is probably much the same as leavers and I prefer to leave the going around in circles to others.

I wrote in my thoughts on immigration as I see it and thought the points I had laid out were quite reasonable, supportable and a balanced way of treating people from abroad that would like to live out their lives here in the UK.

I was trying as I see it, to express a far from extremest point of view about immigration, a view most leavers hold and then remain side of this debate keeps on saying things like how extreme those dreadful leavers are toward foreigners, having an Ausie like points system is just taking a logical look at the problem and making things as fair as possible for both the UK and the immigrants with respect to the sheer numbers of immigrants wanting to enter the UK.

To date I haven't seen a counter to my view on the far too many immigrants coming in without some form of sensible control, it's not so much the immigrants it's the vast numbers involved.

I don't even mind the people of Scotland coming here to live either, I suppose we could make an exception there, that Scot v the Irish rugby match I was a neutral in that one, good game shame about the injury.

ippy

[Roses]

It is because he's not.

Jeremy Corbyn is a Brexiteer. He's also utterly useless and a major impediment (perhaps the only major impediment) to Labour getting in power.

Agreed.

[jeremyp]

You didn't but the implication was clearly there and you've no idea whether leavers in general were ill informed or not

It's obvious that they are ill informed.

a) they voted for a bad idea

b) their arguments since the vote all seem to boil down to "WILL OF THE PEOPLE!!!!!". There's nothing reasoned about how things are going to be better after Oct 31. That's because they are badly informed.

I've never wanted to be in the EU from the start

Why not?

You're not going to answer my question because you don't have an answer and that's because you have been badly informed.

To date I haven't seen a counter to my view on the far too many immigrants coming in without some form of sensible control, it's not so much the immigrants it's the vast numbers involved.

You are ill informed. Can you answer:

How many immigrants come in from the EU each year? How many is too many? Why do you choose  the particular number you do?

If you can't give a good reasoned answer to those questions, you can't say you are well informed about immigration.

[Nearly Sane]

Can't see that the optics on this are going to look good almost no matter what happens.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49789938

[ippy]

It's obvious that they are ill informed.

a) they voted for a bad idea

b) their arguments since the vote all seem to boil down to "WILL OF THE PEOPLE!!!!!". There's nothing reasoned about how things are going to be better after Oct 31. That's because they are badly informed.
Why not?

You're not going to answer my question because you don't have an answer and that's because you have been badly informed.
You are ill informed. Can you answer:

How many immigrants come in from the EU each year? How many is too many? Why do you choose  the particular number you do?

If you can't give a good reasoned answer to those questions, you can't say you are well informed about immigration.

Immigrants any immigrants, from where ever.

So I guess you don't think the UK should be selective about who comes to live here in the UK permanently.

ippy

[Roses]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49795111

The Supreme Court will give their verdict at 10.30am tomorrow on the proroguing issue.

[Christine]

It is because he's not.

Jeremy Corbyn is a Brexiteer. He's also utterly useless and a major impediment (perhaps the only major impediment) to Labour getting in power.

Apologies, Blair isn't a Tory of course.  I allowed my feelings to show, I should have delayed posting and changed the wording.

Corbyn may well be in favour of leaving the EU but that's not what he's said recently and as far as I can tell he tries to avoid lying.  He said he doesn't want to leave without a deal and is willing to implement whatever the outcome of a second referendum might be.  I think that's a sensible line to take and the only viable compromise.

Any Labour leader who advocated the kind of redistributive policies in the last Labour manifesto would face the same hostility from large parts of our media, but I'd like to see someone without Corbyn's baggage try, as long as the policies stayed redistributive.  At least, in the long term - currently we just need someone who isn't a sociopathic compulsive liar (or actually making money out of this farrago) to take charge.

[Nearly Sane]

So the guddle continues at the Labour Party Conference on a show of hands.