Brexit - the next steps

[Nearly Sane]

Comment from  and link to survey twitter:


"For the first time, Corbyn now trails Johnson among those aged 18-24. Who would make the best PM? Johnson 32 Corbyn 29 Among those aged over 65, Corbyn trails Johnson 62 to 8. Corbyn is now behind Johnson in every age group, and every region.

@YouGov

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_upload

[Udayana]

Ah, well, great leaders don't sit on the backbenches for 36 years, bickering with their own party, before accidentally being elected party leader.

[ippy]

I heard a little bit of the BBC radio 2 Jeremy Vine show Today, 18th Oct 19, where a recording of Kier Starmer promising to carry out the wishes of the referendum whichever way it went was played; what happened?

Keir's now steering on a 180 degree course to the opposite of this promise he made pre the 2016 referendum, remainers are very good at explaining how other people are liars and I would find it interesting would the remainers out there describe this apparent lie Mr Starmer made?

Regards, ippy.

[Roses]

The sitting of Parliament tomorrow should be interesting.

[Nearly Sane]

The sitting of Parliament tomorrow should be interesting.

Yes, being glued to Parliament on tv a Saturday will be a bit weird. I'm hoping it goes to extra time and penalties.

[Roses]

Yes, being glued to Parliament on tv a Saturday will be a bit weird. I'm hoping it goes to extra time and penalties.

Absolutely.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Heard on the radio today a droll take on Johnson's, "We've got the deal, now we need to get on with Brexit":

"As John Edward Smith (the captain of the Titanic) might have put it: "We've hit the iceberg, now we need to get on with drowning"". 

[Udayana]

I heard a little bit of the BBC radio 2 Jeremy Vine show Today, 18th Oct 19, where a recording of Kier Starmer promising to carry out the wishes of the referendum whichever way it went was played; what happened?

Keir's now steering on a 180 degree course to the opposite of this promise he made pre the 2016 referendum, remainers are very good at explaining how other people are liars and I would find it interesting would the remainers out there describe this apparent lie Mr Starmer made?

Regards, ippy.

I have not heard whatever you are taking as a promise, but it seems obvious that it is possible for Starmer to remain a Remainer and also to use his abilities to the full to try and "carry out the wishes of the referendum" in the way that he interprets the 52/48% vote.

As shadow Brexit minister he stated many times that he saw it as leaving the EU with a deal that would ensure the UK was not damaged economically and socially - to that end he listed 6 tests for a satisfactory deal.

Now, given that over three years later the government has still been unable to negotiate or pass a satisfactory withdrawal deal (assuming it doesn't pass tomorrow), it is entirely reasonable to request that any deal they do have should be put to a public vote.

[Udayana]

The sitting of Parliament tomorrow should be interesting.

Come on ... they'll just be recycling the same old guff - a bit like searching for God.

[Nearly Sane]

Good analysis on the voting


https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/10/these-are-groups-mps-i-think-will-pass-boris-johnsons-brexit-deal

[jeremyp]

Yes. I did actually shout "stop Brexit" outside the houses of parliament a few weeks ago (but quietly as I'm a bit shy). Back to the caller Martin: I think what he meant was that once free movement of labour ends, they'll have to invest more in training nurses, they won't have any choice. And to be honest, I think a lot of the work could be done by carers.

There are 43,000 vacancies now. The government isn't investing enough to fill even this amount. What makes you think they'll be making up the shortfall after Brexit?

[ippy]

I have not heard whatever you are taking as a promise, but it seems obvious that it is possible for Starmer to remain a Remainer and also to use his abilities to the full to try and "carry out the wishes of the referendum" in the way that he interprets the 52/48% vote.

As shadow Brexit minister he stated many times that he saw it as leaving the EU with a deal that would ensure the UK was not damaged economically and socially - to that end he listed 6 tests for a satisfactory deal.

Now, given that over three years later the government has still been unable to negotiate or pass a satisfactory withdrawal deal (assuming it doesn't pass tomorrow), it is entirely reasonable to request that any deal they do have should be put to a public vote.

If you were to listen to him via the iplayer he made a solemn promise to respect the outcome of the referendum, can't be misinterpreted.

As for another referendum If someone,anyone managed to get to the point of having another referendum I'll see the sponsors along with their referendum off with every breath I have and am able to take right to the upmost of limit of my ability to do so.

We're unlikely to have any common ground on this one Udayana.

Regards, ippy.

[Udayana]

...
We're unlikely to have any common ground on this one Udayana.
...

Ippy,

You are probably right on that. However the point of the discussion is to try and clearly lay out the facts, reasoning and logic behind different arguments, so that, in the end, we are all better able to come to our own conclusions.

[SteveH]

...upmost of limit of...

"...utmost limit of..."

[Gordon]

Reports say that if the Letwin amendment passes, which means Johnson has to write to request an extension, the government will up sticks today and aim to come back next week. Hopefully the EU will quickly agree an extension since, I'd imagine, as soon as they do that is when a VoNC might happen.

[Udayana]

Reports say that if the Letwin amendment passes, which means Johnson has to write to request an extension, the government will up sticks today and aim to come back next week. Hopefully the EU will quickly agree an extension since, I'd imagine, as soon as they do that is when a VoNC might happen.

Somehow I doubt that they would immediately agree an extension. Regime change is not on their todo list!

They need to keep the pressure on for the UK to agree to a deal.

[Gordon]

Somehow I doubt that they would immediately agree an extension. Regime change is not on their todo list!

They need to keep the pressure on for the UK to agree to a deal.

Alternatively, if an extension results in another referendum they might hope that the UK changes its mind.

[Roses]

The MPs have voted to delay the Brexit deal. I wonder what Boris will do now?

[jeremyp]

Alternatively, if an extension results in another referendum they might hope that the UK changes its mind.

Or (and this is a dangerous game) they could back us into a corner where we have to revoke article 50 or crash out with no deal.

[ad_orientem]

Don't understand parliament. Every deal they've rejected despite saying they would respect the referendum. There will be riots at some point, of that I'm sure.

[Gordon]

John Crace's take on today's entertainment.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/19/boris-johnsons-super-saturday-bubble-bursts

[Nearly Sane]

Don't understand parliament. Every deal they've rejected despite saying they would respect the referendum. There will be riots at some point, of that I'm sure.

May's deal would have passed had it not been for the ERG

[Gordon]

Don't understand parliament. Every deal they've rejected despite saying they would respect the referendum. There will be riots at some point, of that I'm sure.

That would be because the referendum was flawed and, therefore, so was the result since it is now clear that any form of Brexit is harmful: hopefully it can yet be stopped.

Some of what passes for reasoning by some Tory Brexit enthusiasts is inconsistent nonsense - we've had Tory MPs (inc Rees Mogg) suggesting that Labour MPs from 'leave' seats should be voting to accept Johnson's deal while conveniently forgetting that all 13 Tory MPs from Scotland represent 'remain' seats (since all seats in Scotland are 'remain' seats) - talk about double standards.

Ironically had those Tories now supporting Johnson's deal previously supported May, then Brexit would have happened by now.

[ad_orientem]

That would be because the referendum was flawed and, therefore, so was the result since it is now clear that any form of Brexit is harmful: hopefully it can yet be stopped.

Some of what passes for reasoning by some Tory Brexit enthusiasts is inconsistent nonsense - we've had Tory MPs (inc Rees Mogg) suggesting that Labour MPs from 'leave' seats should be voting to accept Johnson's deal while conveniently forgetting that all 13 Tory MPs from Scotland represent 'remain' seats (since all seats in Scotland are 'remain' seats) - talk about double standards.

Ironically had those Tories now supporting Johnson's deal previously supported May, then Brexit would have happened by now.

Don't disagree with that last part.

[Udayana]

Alternatively, if an extension results in another referendum they might hope that the UK changes its mind.

Or (and this is a dangerous game) they could back us into a corner where we have to revoke article 50 or crash out with no deal.

The EC have agreed a deal - they must support ratification by the UK but have no remit to interfere in our internal political processes.