Brexit - the next steps

[Gordon]

Seems that Johnson has sent the request but refused to sign it but has also sent a second signed letter saying that he does not wish a delay - hopefully the EU will avoid getting sucked in and consider just the unsigned letter that was legally required of him. It sounds a bit childish, but then he is.

Be interesting to see what the Court of Session say about this tactic when the case resumes on Monday.

[Udayana]

The MPs have voted to delay the Brexit deal. I wonder what Boris will do now?

This is being misrepresented in the media.

The Letwin amendment passed does not necessitate any delay in Brexit. Whether or not we leave on 31st Oct depends entirely on BJ's (and team's) explanatory and sales skills. We could still leave on his schedule.

In fact, if he hadn't decided to put on a display of histrionics, there was a reasonable possibility that he could have won the meaningful vote today. By Monday he will have to produce more detail on impact projections - and some Labour MPs who might have voted for the deal may have changed their minds.

ETA: Actually - as the amended motion was passed he could not have continued .. and is forced to try again on Monday or later.

[Udayana]

Don't understand parliament. Every deal they've rejected despite saying they would respect the referendum. There will be riots at some point, of that I'm sure.

There will not be riots. Although feelings run high, the issue is not important enough to get elderly leavers tearing up the streets. It doesn't affect people day to day - but is a totem for other issues (imo).

[Udayana]

Seems that Johnson has sent the request but refused to sign it but has also sent a second signed letter saying that he does not wish a delay - hopefully the EU will avoid getting sucked in and consider just the unsigned letter that was legally required of him. It sounds a bit childish, but then he is.

Be interesting to see what the Court of Session say about this tactic when the case resumes on Monday.

Yes, childish ... and confirms yet again that he can't be trusted.

[Nearly Sane]

There will not be riots. Although feelings run high, the issue is not important enough to get elderly leavers tearing up the streets. It doesn't affect people day to day - but is a totem for other issues (imo).

What about non elderly leavers?

[Udayana]

They seem to be mostly invisible?

[Nearly Sane]

They seem to be mostly invisible?

17.4 million voted for it. Were all of them elderly?

[Spud]

There are 43,000 vacancies now. The government isn't investing enough to fill even this amount. What makes you think they'll be making up the shortfall after Brexit?

Well, there may not be many European nurses looking for work here, except for the highest paid jobs, due to restrictions, after Brexit.  So the government could either make special allowance for lower paid nurses to come here, or train more of them here. I don't disagree that they could carry on with a policy of 'importing' nurses, but I think if they switched focus to making it easier to train here then many of those vacancies could be filled in the long run. My main concern is I think people are entitled to hold that view without being shouted down.

[Roses]

Boris should be forced to resign, he is behaving in a manner totally unsuited to the office he holds.

[Harrowby Hall]

if they switched focus to making it easier to train here

Go and study the contents of Project 2000.

[Gordon]

Go and study the contents of Project 2000.

Which was a disaster: at that time I was in NHS management and had to deal directly with Project 2000 and the recruitment problems it caused. Mrs G was a nurse, now retired, and recalls just how unprepared and lacking practical experience newly qualified nurses were under P2000, compared to how she was trained.

[jeremyp]

Well, there may not be many European nurses looking for work here, except for the highest paid jobs, due to restrictions, after Brexit.  So the government could either make special allowance for lower paid nurses to come here, or train more of them here. I don't disagree that they could carry on with a policy of 'importing' nurses, but I think if they switched focus to making it easier to train here then many of those vacancies could be filled in the long run. My main concern is I think people are entitled to hold that view without being shouted down.

You're missing the point. The could switch focus to doing training here without leaving the EU. The EU is doing nothing to stop us from training our own nurses.

[SusanDoris]

Which was a disaster: at that time I was in NHS management and had to deal directly with Project 2000 and the recruitment problems it caused. Mrs G was a nurse, now retired, and recalls just how unprepared and lacking practical experience newly qualified nurses were under P2000, compared to how she was trained.

Do you think there is any possibility of nurses being able to tchoose to train with practical, hands-on experience from the start and then being able to qualify with the same degree or whatever it might be called as University-trained nurses do?

[ad_orientem]

Boris should be forced to resign, he is behaving in a manner totally unsuited to the office he holds.

All those MP's who said they would respect the referendum lied through their back teeth. Scum, the lot of them.

[Roses]

All those MP's who said they would respect the referendum lied through their back teeth. Scum, the lot of them.

We should have another referendum now people are beginning to realise how very damaging leaving the EU will be to the UK.

[ad_orientem]

Yeah, another one they will lie about respecting. Scum of the earth!

[Roses]

Yeah, another one they will lie about respecting. Scum of the earth!

The 'scum of the earth' like Boris, lied about the benefits to the UK of leaving the EU before the referendum, which is why many people voted to leave.

[Aruntraveller]

Yeah, another one they will lie about respecting. Scum of the earth!

I don't really agree with that.

I think the majority of MP's are struggling with two irreconcilable facts. One being leaving the EU, and the other being causing as little harm as possible to the economy and therefore the people of the UK. The truth of the matter is you can have either of those, but you can't have both. So they have been searching for the last 3 years to find a compromise that does the least damage but still fulfils the mandate to leave. That they can't agree on that is not surprising given the make up of the HoC.

I'm sure the vast majority of them would love to move on to other issues, but they fear the damage that will be caused if they get this momentous decision wrong.

And to be clear when I say the majority of MP's I don't include Johnson, Duncan Smith, Leadsom, Rees Mogg,etc. The ministers are largely a bunch of right wing economic fundamentalists who don't give a flying fig for the ordinary people of this country. Why the areas affected so badly by Thatcher's economic policies, such as my home town Mansfield, would choose to believe this bunch of privileged, lazy under achievers is beyond me. But then the country's (England for clarity) decision on this matter baffles me totally.

[Udayana]

17.4 million voted for it. Were all of them elderly?

The media are going to have to wind the spin up a lot to get the younger leavers out on the streets.

The problem is that being in or out doesn't really have an immediate effect on peoples lives - if we left overnight with a deal would anything be different tomorrow?

If we left without a deal and panic did cause the supermarkets to be emptied - then you might see riots.

[Spud]

You're missing the point. The could switch focus to doing training here without leaving the EU. The EU is doing nothing to stop us from training our own nurses.

I get your point. Thanks.

[wigginhall]

The media are going to have to wind the spin up a lot to get the younger leavers out on the streets.

The problem is that being in or out doesn't really have an immediate effect on peoples lives - if we left overnight with a deal would anything be different tomorrow?

If we left without a deal and panic did cause the supermarkets to be emptied - then you might see riots.

Probably tomrrow would be the same.  But if it's correct that Boris is considering hefty deregulation, plus so-called Atlanticism, I.e., cuddling up to Trump, life might become very different.  Working conditions worse, environmental rules diluted, more poverty, and so on.  It's uncertain, but it's certain that Boris is a duplicitous shit peddling hard right solutions.  Well, do you feel lucky?

[ippy]

Ippy,

You are probably right on that. However the point of the discussion is to try and clearly lay out the facts, reasoning and logic behind different arguments, so that, in the end, we are all better able to come to our own conclusions.

Udayana, if you remember when we had a referendum and leave carried the day?

Surly when the result of the referendum has been carried out it would be a good time to clearly lay out the facts reasoning and logic behind different arguments and work out the best way of utilising the advantages we'll be able to apply from then on with all of the freshly recovered freedoms and independence from the EU will give us.

Regards, ippy.

[Gordon]

Udayana, if you remember when we had a referendum and leave carried the day?

Surly when the result of the referendum has been carried out it would be a good time to clearly lay out the facts reasoning and logic behind different arguments and work out the best way of utilising the advantages we'll be able to apply from then on with all of the freshly recovered freedoms and independence from the EU will give us.

Regards, ippy.

It would have been better if those promoting Brexit had ' clearly lay out the facts reasoning and logic' and the 'advantages' of Brexit before people had the opportunity to vote: of course we now know why, since there are none.

[Roses]

Udayana, if you remember when we had a referendum and leave carried the day?

Surly when the result of the referendum has been carried out it would be a good time to clearly lay out the facts reasoning and logic behind different arguments and work out the best way of utilising the advantages we'll be able to apply from then on with all of the freshly recovered freedoms and independence from the EU will give us.

Regards, ippy.

What freedoms, much higher prices, less people to man the NHS? We will be much worse off if we leave the EU, tiny little Britain needs the support of the EU, imo.

[wigginhall]

But remember, we'll have the protection of Trump!  That should see us all right/in the mire.