Brexit - the next steps

[Roses]

But remember, we'll have the protection of Trump!  That should see us all right/in the mire.

We would be really up the creek without a paddle then!

[Udayana]

Probably tomrrow would be the same.  But if it's correct that Boris is considering hefty deregulation, plus so-called Atlanticism, I.e., cuddling up to Trump, life might become very different.  Working conditions worse, environmental rules diluted, more poverty, and so on.  It's uncertain, but it's certain that Boris is a duplicitous shit peddling hard right solutions.  Well, do you feel lucky?

I agree that we, however anyone voted, would be best off remaining. However, given that about half the electorate have decided to invest in beads and baubles dangled before them by cheats and liars - the remaining half need to persuade them of the value of what is being lost.

[Udayana]

Udayana, if you remember when we had a referendum and leave carried the day?

Surly when the result of the referendum has been carried out it would be a good time to clearly lay out the facts reasoning and logic behind different arguments and work out the best way of utilising the advantages we'll be able to apply from then on with all of the freshly recovered freedoms and independence from the EU will give us.

Regards, ippy.

That is basically "shoot first and ask questions later".

You have declined to list the advantages and freedoms we might gain a number of times, let alone how they could be used to the better.

[wigginhall]

It's more like the Texas sharp shooter fallacy.  You fire random shots into the side of a barn, then draw a circle round some, and claim you hit the target.

[wigginhall]

I agree that we, however anyone voted, would be best off remaining. However, given that about half the electorate have decided to invest in beads and baubles dangled before them by cheats and liars - the remaining half need to persuade them of the value of what is being lost.

It's too late.  It's turned into a religion, beyond reason.  Even if there are disasters, such as the end of the car industry, the believers will keep the faith.  A new religion/cult is born!

[Stranger]

Surly when the result of the referendum has been carried out it would be a good time to clearly lay out the facts reasoning and logic behind different arguments and work out the best way of utilising the advantages we'll be able to apply from then on with all of the freshly recovered freedoms and independence from the EU will give us.

These would be the "advantages" that you have repeatedly refused to articulate yourself, despite endless requests to do so? How about naming a few now?

Meanwhile, out here in the real world and assuming Boris the Liar gets his deal through, people will be dealing with never-ending Brexit debate because we will still need to finalise our relationship with the EU, together with the job losses, damage to the economy, and probably the break up of the UK. All the while the UK will be getting progressively more pro EU due to the old fools, who largely voted for it, dying off - but the Brexit cult will, no doubt, still be chanting their "will of the people" mantra...

[wigginhall]

2nd vote coming up on Monday for Boris deal.  2nd referendum?   Sorry, not democratic.

[Gordon]

I wonder how Bercow will play this - the problem May had at one point was when Bercow refused to allow her re-presenting the same motion which, iirc, isn't allowed withing the same parliamentary session, and a new session has just started.

[Stranger]

So Amber Rudd said: "Our government's own assessments are that this will hurt the economy I think by 4-6 per cent a year so it's serious stuff, but I still think it's the right thing to do because we had the referendum in 2016." (source). So, even though the leave campaign said we'd be better off, it's undemocratic to ask the people if they still really want this. You really couldn't make it up...

[wigginhall]

Justine Greening said it's like buying a house without looking inside.  It's actually like buying a house with no floors, leaky roofs, and blocked drains, because we said we'd buy it.

[ippy]

These would be the "advantages" that you have repeatedly refused to articulate yourself, despite endless requests to do so? How about naming a few now?

Meanwhile, out here in the real world and assuming Boris the Liar gets his deal through, people will be dealing with never-ending Brexit debate because we will still need to finalise our relationship with the EU, together with the job losses, damage to the economy, and probably the break up of the UK. All the while the UK will be getting progressively more pro EU due to the old fools, who largely voted for it, dying off - but the Brexit cult will, no doubt, still be chanting their "will of the people" mantra...

I have expressed my top most reason for leaving that reason on it's own is enough reason to leave in my opinion.

Don't worry too much though I still don't think of remainers as bad people.

Regards, ippy.

[Roses]

Justine Greening said it's like buying a house without looking inside.  It's actually like buying a house with no floors, leaky roofs, and blocked drains, because we said we'd buy it.

An excellent analogy.

[Stranger]

I have expressed my top most reason for leaving that reason on it's own is enough reason to leave in my opinion.

You talked about the EU court and "ever closer union", which we had an opt-out from anyway, but you never said why they are a disadvantage or why getting rid of them would be an advantage - so what are these "advantages" you were talking about?

[Udayana]

I have expressed my top most reason for leaving that reason on it's own is enough reason to leave in my opinion.

Don't worry too much though I still don't think of remainers as bad people.

Regards, ippy.

Assuming you mean the end of freedom of movement. However it is not at all certain that implementation of a points based immigration system will lead to a drop in immigration levels - as immigration is required to keep the economy and public services running.

For decades politicians have been happy to blame free movement and/or "illegal" immigration for many issues that they have not bothered to manage properly.

The points based system may turn out to be better than the current earnings based system for managing non-EU migration - but, even here, does not guarantee any drop in figures.

From the other side - it will almost certainly reduce the opportunities and freedoms of UK citizens to work or live in Europe.

Overall, from the UK perspective, I'd count it as a loss of freedom in exchange for uncertain gains.

[Anchorman]

The Dug's take on yesterday's shambles. options https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/author/weegingerdug/

[SusanDoris]

Much as I'd like the final outcome to be that we remain in the EU, I  think another referendum would be entirely the wrong way to do it.

[Gordon]

Much as I'd like the final outcome to be that we remain in the EU, I  think another referendum would be entirely the wrong way to do it.

Why?

The electorate is now better informed, which casts doubt on the usefulness of the 2016 referendum, and the current government are a bunch of witless, lying, manipulative fuckwits - plus there is oft trumpeted assumption that 'the people' want Brexit no matter what: this is an assumption that should at least be sanity tested.

A GE as a basis to resolve Brexit would be messy, whereas a referendum would be very specific to the issue at hand.

[Aruntraveller]

I know it's from The Guardian and Ippy will hate it for that reason alone, but he really should read it. It illustrates exactly why you cannot take Leaving the EU as one single issue entirely unconnected from the people involved and the climate of the times.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/20/catastrophic-men-theory-history-step-forward-boris-johnson?

[Gordon]

I've watched several vox pops today on various new bulletins, and most of these come from 'middle England' rather than where I am, and it does seem telling that when middle-aged leave 'voters are asked comment all they seem to say are variations of 'we want out' - but with no justification given. As for Tory politicians talking about 'pulling the country together' I suspect most of them would struggle to pull curtains together.

It seems to me that 'leave' is no more than an aggregation of ignorance laced with a dash of xenophobia (or vice-versa).

[Anchorman]

I've watched several vox pops today on various new bulletins, and most of these come from 'middle England' rather than where I am, and it does seem telling that when middle-aged leave 'voters are asked comment all they seem to say are variations of 'we want out' - but with no justification given. As for Tory politicians talking about 'pulling the country together' I suspect most of them would struggle to pull curtains together.

It seems to me that 'leave' is no more than an aggregation of ignorance laced with a dash of xenophobia (or vice-versa).

   


After the last three years of burach, I very much doubt whether Labour or - God forbid - Tory Westminster politicians have a hope of pulling England together, far less doing anything which remotely bridges the yawning chasms that crack open the british union.

[ippy]

You talked about the EU court and "ever closer union", which we had an opt-out from anyway, but you never said why they are a disadvantage or why getting rid of them would be an advantage - so what are these "advantages" you were talking about?

I did however express everything I wanted to say about the EU.

Regards, ippy.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Wiggs,

Justine Greening said it's like buying a house without looking inside.  It's actually like buying a house with no floors, leaky roofs, and blocked drains, because we said we'd buy it.

Yes, but the reason we said we'd buy it was that the seller's spec said it had been recently refurbished to the highest standards, has a lovely pool/spa combo, carbon free energy and a professional tennis court. And when we asked if it was ok to have a look first the answer was, "Oh no, we can't allow that I'm afraid. Scrutinise the place? Oh I really don't think so, after all you can trust me not to steer you wrong. Just look at all the local papers saying what a lovely place it is after all. So if you'd just sign here please..."

And guess what? Lots of people did.     

[ippy]

I've watched several vox pops today on various new bulletins, and most of these come from 'middle England' rather than where I am, and it does seem telling that when middle-aged leave 'voters are asked comment all they seem to say are variations of 'we want out' - but with no justification given. As for Tory politicians talking about 'pulling the country together' I suspect most of them would struggle to pull curtains together.

It seems to me that 'leave' is no more than an aggregation of ignorance laced with a dash of xenophobia (or vice-versa).

All of the main parties gave solemn promises to enact the result of the referendum whichever way it went with no indication of how these Machiavellian remain tendencies would click in to place if we voted for their idea of the wrong way and you think Boris is underhand.

Just to repeat I'm no particular fan of Boris.

I'm more inclined to think of remainers as they've just got it wrong about leaving the EU and I'll reserve any abusive language in that direction as long as remainers aren't having any luck reversing the result of the 2016 referendum.

Regards, ippy.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ippy,

All of the main parties gave solemn promises to enact the result of the referendum whichever way it went with no indication of how these Machiavellian remain tendencies would click in to place if we voted for their idea of the wrong way and you think Boris is underhand.

Just to repeat I'm no particular fan of Boris.

I'm more inclined to think of remainers as they've just got it wrong about leaving the EU and I'll reserve any abusive language in that direction as long as remainers aren't having any luck reversing the result of the 2016 referendum.

Various of the leave campaigners pre-referendum made lots of "solemn promises" about what a leave decision would mean, all of which we now know to be false. Why in your view should the solemn promises to implement the decision be taken seriously, but the solemn promises on which the referendum was won should be ignored?

[Roses]

I see the Speaker has prevented Boris from having another vote on his Brexit deal.