Brexit - the next steps

[Nearly Sane]

Where you say "Tories" I think we can take it as "Cummings"; the rest will rationalise and repeat whatever he tells them to say.

I think the media like the idea of a Svengali and while he undoubtedly has influence, I don't see it as he is portrayed.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Saw Jonathan Pie in Cambridge last night (very good by the way - worth seeing if you can catch his tour) but the support act (JoJo Sutherland) had quite a nice joke: "Brexit sound exactly like a joke - an Englishman, a Scotsman and an Irishman walk into a pub. The Englishman decides to leave. For some reason the Scotsman and the Irishman have to f*** off too!"

[Nearly Sane]

Not sure it is within Johnson's remit to tie the debate of the deal to the date of election. Absolutely sure that any MP that has any worth should refuse it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50174402

[Nearly Sane]

And poll held on16-17 Oct about voting intentions if leave date extended.

if "the deadline for the UK to leave the EU has been extended beyond the 31st of October 2019": LAB: 27% CON: 26% BREX: 20% LDEM: 18% GRN: 4%

[Roses]

I wonder if Boris will be found dead in a ditch, if the date is extended?

[Nearly Sane]

So Queen's Speech passed. Good propaganda if we should have an election.

[Gordon]

I suspect his play this evening, of agree a GE on 12th Dec and I'll let you carry on with the Brexit bill, will fail.

[Nearly Sane]

This is utterly chilling, and I don't think it matters that the numbers are a bit different dependent in side or location. Who would be a politician when the majority of people think violence against you is ok.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit


ETA - I've just looked at the detail of the survey results and it says nothing like the headlines - the numbers that would see violence as worth it are about 5% - which while still scary is not what appears in the story - fake news.

[Aruntraveller]

This is utterly chilling, and I don't think it matters that the numbers are a bit different dependent in side or location. Who would be a politician when the majority of people think violence against you is ok.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit

This is really very, very disturbing. Not for the first time have I thought that I must be living in some parallel universe. I either avoid the people with these thoughts or I send out a subliminal message saying please don't tell me this.

[Gordon]

Let's face it: on any level Brexit is shit, and is screwing everything up.

[Nearly Sane]

Seen elsewhere


Round and round Westminster
Like a Brexit bear
one step
two step
oh fuck we're back to the start again

[Nearly Sane]

From Kevin Maguire, Labour supporting journalist on Twitter

"Labour whips threatening to resign after Nick Brown agreed with Corbyn the party's MPs would abstain in Johnson's election vote then Jezza recorded a film saying he still wanted one and the leader's office briefed the position was provisional and could change. Chaos."

[Gordon]

Have to laugh at the attempts by several Tories to portray Labour as being the problem when Brexit is a mess created primarily by the Tories in the first place, and then turned into and even bigger mess thanks to the hapless efforts of two worse than useless PMs/ministers: sometimes the best way to clear up a mess, and restore order is, by making use of a bin.

[Roses]

Both Tories and Labour have big problems with their leaders, although Corbyn might be marginally better than Boris, imo.

[Anchorman]

I don't normally bother with polls and surveys, but the results of this one are frankly disturbing.
https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/news/view/1709008-future-of-england-survey-reveals-public-attitudes-towards-brexit-and-the-union?fbclid=IwAR3r30drKAZ143TWoaDP1U8Cu1x9TPXqqpTn75UFG26Enmp1sFyomi7b1UE

[Nearly Sane]

I don't normally bother with polls and surveys, but the results of this one are frankly disturbing.
https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/news/view/1709008-future-of-england-survey-reveals-public-attitudes-towards-brexit-and-the-union?fbclid=IwAR3r30drKAZ143TWoaDP1U8Cu1x9TPXqqpTn75UFG26Enmp1sFyomi7b1UE

Yes, I linked to the Guardian (obviously just to wind up ippy) report on this earlier. Quite scary.

ETA - I've just looked at the detail of the survey results and it says nothing like the headlines - the numbers that would see violence as worth it are about 5% - which while still scary is not what appears in the story - fake news.

[Nearly Sane]

This is really very, very disturbing. Not for the first time have I thought that I must be living in some parallel universe. I either avoid the people with these thoughts or I send out a subliminal message saying please don't tell me this.

I've just looked at the detail of the survey results and it says nothing like the headlines - the numbers that would see violence as worth it are about 5% - which while still scary is not what appears in the story - fake news.

[jeremyp]

This is utterly chilling, and I don't think it matters that the numbers are a bit different dependent in side or location. Who would be a politician when the majority of people think violence against you is ok.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit


ETA - I've just looked at the detail of the survey results and it says nothing like the headlines - the numbers that would see violence as worth it are about 5% - which while still scary is not what appears in the story - fake news.

Interesting.

My answer to the question would depend on exactly what the question was. If the question was "would you be still be prepared to see Brexit stopped if there was a risk of violence to MPs by Brexiteers as a consequence?" My answer is yes. If the question was "Is it acceptable for Remainers (or anyone) to commit violence to get their way?" The answer is no, for me.

I'm not going to say "let's not withdraw article 50" just because some Brexiteers are threatening violence against MPs if we do.

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting.

My answer to the question would depend on exactly what the question was. If the question was "would you be still be prepared to see Brexit stopped if there was a risk of violence to MPs by Brexiteers as a consequence?" My answer is yes. If the question was "Is it acceptable for Remainers (or anyone) to commit violence to get their way?" The answer is no, for me.

I'm not going to say "let's not withdraw article 50" just because some Brexiteers are threatening violence against MPs if we do.

What if the first question there was phrased @Would you still be prepared to see Brexit stopped if there was MPs suffered violence caused by it?'

As you say it depends on the phrasing.

[ippy]

What extra freedoms can I expect from Brexit? As far as I can see, the only freedoms involved are my ability to travel and work in the EU which will be curtailed.

Before this ever closer union came about even before the EEC I had relatives and a few people I knew of as well that lived and worked in various parts of Europe and none of this was unusual.

Although it wasn't shedloads, (unlike now many aircraft hangar-loads), of people either way.

I haven't heard of anyone from any quarter asking for a complete ban on immigration within Europe either way, have you heard something I may have missed?

Regards, ippy.

P S, have you noticed, on this thread that if it's known that someone, anyone is known to be for leaving the EU, if a leaver has the effrontery to express something like, 'it's a nice day today' or 'hello', somehow or other if there's a reply it's invariably derogatory or downbeat in some way?

[ippy]

Both Tories and Labour have big problems with their leaders, although Corbyn might be marginally better than Boris, imo.

Well not really L R, if we were unfortunate enough to have the Hamas Hugger in a position of power he'd be less likely to implement leaving the EU than Boris.

Regards, ippy.

[Roses]

Well not really L R, if we were unfortunate enough to have the Hamas Hugger in a position of power he'd be less likely to implement leaving the EU than Boris.

Regards, ippy.

Leaving the EU would be the worst mistake the UK could make, imo

[Stranger]

ETA - I've just looked at the detail of the survey results and it says nothing like the headlines - the numbers that would see violence as worth it are about 5% - which while still scary is not what appears in the story - fake news.

Where did you get that? I've just looked at the results for England and the questions are:

Some have suggested that **leaving the European Union** might present challenges to the UK but others disagree, labelling this as Project Fear. For each of the following please tell us whether you think this would be a price worth paying or not worth paying for Brexit?
...
Violence directed towards Members of Parliament

For the option "I see it as a risk but it’s worth it to take back control", in the column for leave voters in 2016, the number is 71%, as stated in the article.

Similarly for the question:

Some have suggested that stopping Brexit and **remaining in the EU** might present challenges to the UK but others disagree. For each of the following please tell us whether you think this would be a price worth paying or not worth paying for stopping Brexit
...
Violence directed towards Members of Parliament

For the option "I see it as a risk but it’s worth it to remain in the EU"  in the column for remain voters in 2016, the number is 58%, as stated in the article.

[ProfessorDavey]

Where did you get that? I've just looked at the results for England and the questions are:

Some have suggested that **leaving the European Union** might present challenges to the UK but others disagree, labelling this as Project Fear. For each of the following please tell us whether you think this would be a price worth paying or not worth paying for Brexit?
...
Violence directed towards Members of Parliament

For the option "I see it as a risk but it’s worth it to take back control", in the column for leave voters in 2016, the number is 71%, as stated in the article.

Similarly for the question:

Some have suggested that stopping Brexit and **remaining in the EU** might present challenges to the UK but others disagree. For each of the following please tell us whether you think this would be a price worth paying or not worth paying for stopping Brexit
...
Violence directed towards Members of Parliament

For the option "I see it as a risk but it’s worth it to remain in the EU"  in the column for remain voters in 2016, the number is 58%, as stated in the article.

I suspect this is being misinterpreted.

I don't think it means that violence against MPs is a price worth paying - I think if you look at the wording it is that the 'risk' of violence is a price worth paying. So that doesn't mean there would be violence, but that there is a risk of it. So people answering:

'I see it as a risk but it’s worth it to take back control'

May be thinking it is a risk, but a vanishingly small one and not something we should concern ourselves with - there is no other option that allows them to voice that opinion as the other options are:

'I want this to happen regardless of Brexit' - horrifyingly supported by 7% of people and
'Leaving the EU is not worth the risk of this happening'

So what do you answer if you don't think there is a risk of violence or that the risk is tiny - well, if you are a leaver probably 'I see it as a risk but it’s worth it to take back control'.

Frankly I think the questions are poor as they don't talk account of the believability of the claim amongst those answering the survey.

[jeremyp]

What if the first question there was phrased @Would you still be prepared to see Brexit stopped if there was MPs suffered violence caused by it?'

As you say it depends on the phrasing.

You mean, if the violence as a consequence was a certainty? I'd probably still have to say yes. It's my belief that the damage done to the People by Brexit will outweigh violence against MPs. I hope in that situation I would be prepared to put my own safety at risk by trying to prevent the said violence.