Brexit - the next steps

[jeremyp]

Before this ever closer union came about even before the EEC I had relatives and a few people I knew of as well that lived and worked in various parts of Europe and none of this was unusual.

Although it wasn't shedloads, (unlike now many aircraft hangar-loads), of people either way.

I haven't heard of anyone from any quarter asking for a complete ban on immigration within Europe either way, have you heard something I may have missed?

Regards, ippy.

Not answering the question I see.

P S, have you noticed, on this thread that if it's known that someone, anyone is known to be for leaving the EU, if a leaver has the effrontery to express something like, 'it's a nice day today' or 'hello', somehow or other if there's a reply it's invariably derogatory or downbeat in some way?

Given your attitude on this thread, it's not easy to stop it from affecting other threads. I try not to let it affect my posts elsewhere but, no doubt you can show me examples where I have fallen short. For that I apologise.

[Udayana]

Johnson isn't putting his bill forward for scrutiny because it is just garbage and could not get through without considerable amendment.

The EU27 should be planning for a long extension and possible renegotiation  - at least of the Political Declaration.

[ippy]

Not answering the question I see.
Given your attitude on this thread, it's not easy to stop it from affecting other threads. I try not to let it affect my posts elsewhere but, no doubt you can show me examples where I have fallen short. For that I apologise.

Like I have said and keep on saying I'm certain that leavers and remainers won't be agreeing with each other probably we'll never see eye to eye.

I see this disagreement as a total impasse so it's only right when we get this type of disagreement where tossing a coin wouldn't be right so the best solution is to have a referendum, we've done that.

The only thing that'll be giving me a bad taste in the mouth is if anyone or group were to manage a reversal of the vote, other than that I see this Brexit as something we are unlikely to ever agree about, the only feelings I have about fellow contributors to this forum is that it's such a shame you're not all leavers, attempted humour, and I still wish you all well, apart from that you can stick your remain wherever you like as long as we don't remain in that EU anymore.

As for giving you an example of general hostility it's more the tenor, the tone of posts I'm referring to, it's not that easy to nail down an example but it is there and not in my imagination, but there you go fire away.

Regards, ippy

[Roses]

I think another referendum is necessary, with voters being told the TRUTH about the consequences of leaving the EU, which didn't happen the last time around.

[Gordon]

Like I have said and keep on saying I'm certain that leavers and remainers won't be agreeing with each other probably we'll never see eye to eye.

I see this disagreement as a total impasse so it's only right when we get this type of disagreement where tossing a coin wouldn't be right so the best solution is to have a referendum, we've done that.

Don't be silly, ippy - there was no 'disagreement' before the referendum, which happened in order for the Tory party to be seen to react to UKIP and marginalise their own lunatic fringe: they just didn't expect or prepare for some parts of electorate being naive enough to vote 'leave'.

The only thing that'll be giving me a bad taste in the mouth is if anyone or group were to manage a reversal of the vote, other than that I see this Brexit as something we are unlikely to ever agree about, the only feelings I have about fellow contributors to this forum is that it's such a shame you're not all leavers, attempted humour, and I still wish you all well, apart from that you can stick your remain wherever you like as long as we don't remain in that EU anymore.

Get used to it, ippy: attempts will be made to either stop Brexit or water it down (the former would be better). One look at the current shambles should be enough to convince you that you voted for the pig-in-a-poke fantasy that was promoted by a bunch of lying bastards, as is illustrated by the news story in FT today about workers rights.

[ippy]

Don't be silly, ippy - there was no 'disagreement' before the referendum, which happened in order for the Tory party to be seen to react to UKIP and marginalise their own lunatic fringe: they just didn't expect or prepare for some parts of electorate being naive enough to vote 'leave'.

Get used to it, ippy: attempts will be made to either stop Brexit or water it down (the former would be better). One look at the current shambles should be enough to convince you that you voted for the pig-in-a-poke fantasy that was promoted by a bunch of lying bastards, as is illustrated by the news story in FT today about workers rights.

The disagreement is mostly based on remainers not accepting the result of the referendum which was for leave or remain, I don't see remainers as a bunch of brainless twits, just wrong and fair enough you most likely think the opposite.

I don't see Europe as an enemy camp, they have their wants fine let them have them, we'll go our own way which will of course include getting along well with as many of the worlds countries as possible as well as the EU.

I don't think it's your usual way of debate to start on things like semantics, who did or didn't say something first or what was argued before or after a certain point, I usually enjoy your more usual succinct, dry approach to most subjects on the forum.

I really don't care who's for leaving the EU, I didn't want to be in it in the first place, I voted against the EEC all of those years ago and as for ever closer union, (I'm not that keen on the use of the Anglo Saxon terms), so I'll almost go with the devil if it'll take us out, (yes of course if the devil existed).

Regards, ippy. 

[Roses]

The disagreement is mostly based on remainers not accepting the result of the referendum which was for leave or remain, I don't see remainers as a bunch of brainless twits, just wrong and fair enough you most likely think the opposite.

I don't see Europe as an enemy camp, they have their wants fine let them have them, we'll go our own way which will of course include getting along well with as many of the worlds countries as possible as well as the EU.

I don't think it's your usual way of debate to start on things like semantics, who did or didn't say something first or what was argued before or after a certain point, I usually enjoy your more usual succinct, dry approach to most subjects on the forum.

I really don't care who's for leaving the EU, I didn't want to be in it in the first place, I voted against the EEC all of those years ago and as for ever closer union, (I'm not that keen on the use of the Anglo Saxon terms), so I'll almost go with the devil if it'll take us out, (yes of course if the devil existed).

Regards, ippy.

What is so bad about being in the EU for pity's sake? Britain is a tiny little country and needs the support of our near neighbours, we don't have any empire anymore thank goodness. Being supported by the EU is far better than being supported by that country across the pond, now that lunatic is in charge.

[Stranger]

I really don't care who's for leaving the EU, I didn't want to be in it in the first place, I voted against the EEC all of those years ago and as for ever closer union, (I'm not that keen on the use of the Anglo Saxon terms), so I'll almost go with the devil if it'll take us out, (yes of course if the devil existed).

There you go with the unreasoning pseudo-religious fervour again. You seem to be doing your best to live up to the stereotypical unthinking leaver. I think we should remain for reasons that I'm perfectly happy to articulate and discuss, but I wouldn't "go with the devil" or pay any price for that end. You can't or won't say what's actually wrong, in any practical down-to-earth way, with the EU yet you're prepared, so it would seem, to sacrifice anything to get what you want.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ippy,

The disagreement is mostly based on remainers not accepting the result of the referendum which was for leave or remain...

You keep making the same mistake of assuming "leave vs remain" to be equivalent opposites. They're not though. "Remain" as a proposition is a set of known facts. "Leave" on the other hand was all unknowns, which is why the campaign was so important. We now know that that nothing the leave campaign said was true, and that the Johnson "deal" bears no relationship to what was promised in the prospectus (not least by Johnson himself – "there's no question of leaving the single market" etc).

That's why a second referendum is the only way out - two sets of known knowns (remain vs Johnson's deal) to decide between would be meaningful, whereas the 2016 referendum was not.

[Roses]

ippy,

You keep making the same mistake of assuming "leave or remain" to be equivalent opposites. They're not though. "Remain" as a proposition is a set of known facts. "Leave" on the other hand was all unknowns, which is why the campaign was so important. We now know that that nothing the leave campaign said was true, and that the Johnson "deal" bears no relationship to what was promised in the prospectus (not least by Johnson himself – "there's no question of leaving the single market" etc).

That's why a second referendum is the only way out - two sets of known knowns (remain vs Johnson's deal) to decide between would be meaningful, whereas the 2016 referendum was not.

I agree.

[Udayana]

The disagreement is mostly based on remainers not accepting the result of the referendum which was for leave or remain, I don't see remainers as a bunch of brainless twits, just wrong and fair enough you most likely think the opposite.
...

I don't see what difference it makes whether remainers accept the result or not really. With around half the voters against staying in the EU, in the long run it won't help the EU having the UK remain in it. Although, to be fair, at least one country (us) now has vocal pro-EU supporters.   

The Leave vote won, and could have easily left the EU by now if leavers had agreed between themselves what kind of leave they wanted. Now the Leaver PM has a new deal, but is playing games in parliament instead of working to get it through.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Udayana,

I don't see what difference it makes whether remainers accept the result or not really. With around half the voters against staying in the EU, in the long run it won't help the EU having the UK remain in it. Although, to be fair, at least one country (us) now has vocal pro-EU supporters.   

The Leave vote won, and could have easily left the EU by now if leavers had agreed between themselves what kind of leave they wanted. Now the Leaver PM has a new deal, but is playing games in parliament instead of working to get it through.

The problem with that though is that you have no idea whether “around half the voters” would have voted for the Johnson deal rather than to remain. And the reason you don’t know that is that no-one – literally no-one – was asked to choose between the two. It doesn’t seem much of a stretch to suggest that some at least of the 17.4m leave voters would have voted remain instead of for that deal had the choice been put to them, and as the “win” was so tight being asked that question could well produce a different outcome.

Johnson, Cummings et al are terrified as of asking that though because they fear the answer (so much for democracy eh?), which is why they’d rather die in a ditch than agree to a second referendum…

…”die in a ditch”? Oh, hang on though…

[Gordon]

Aside from being a Tory/right-wing policy, the way that the Tories have approached Brexit, in terms of their 'red-lines' of no customs union or single market arrangement with the EU, made it undeliverable, and the most obvious indication of this is the NI situation which has been an issue from as soon as they tried to negotiate a withdrawal arrangement and is now becoming seriously scary.

Of course those proposing Brexit back in 2016, had they not been indulging in fantasy, should have understood this from the outset and addressed the specific NI issues, and they didn't: the changed approach to NI in Johnson's recent 'deal' shows that the Unionist part of the Tory-party name is now a joke, especially given the recent finding that the party would be prepared to lose NI and Scotland (and some of us Scots would happy with this) so that they got their precious Brexit. I'm struggling to see how anything other than revoking A50 makes any sense now, since I can't see how NI won't descend into chaos if any form of Brexit short of a customs union goes ahead, which won't happen due to Tory 'red-lines', and of course we will all be damaged by any form of Brexit.

Cancelling Brexit and immediately reviewing options for the either the break-up or radical reconfiguration of the UK would make more sense. The GF agreement provides for a border poll in NI, so that should be sanity-checked, as should the current consensus as regards remaining in the EU in each of the 4 nations. I'd guess Scotland and NI will, just as in 2016, prefer to remain in the EU, I'm not sure about the situation in Wales, so perhaps it is only in England that there is still a majority for leaving the EU (and for the Tory party) and that might suggest that England (and possibly Wales) secedes from the UK unless the experience of the last 3 and a bit years will result in a majority for 'remain' too.

It seems to me, given the current situation, that looking again at the UK might be just as valid as thrashing about trying to square the circle of the current chaotic approach to Brexit, since it seems likely that the UK is already broken in terms of the political affiliations of the 4 nations.

[Spud]

They seem to have forgotten about the thousands on the people's vote march - if they even noticed them. Bizarre. Also bizarre is this obsession with doing our own trade deals.

[Spud]

If we all, at 12pm tomorrow, go outside and shout, STOP BREXIT, maybe our combined volume would convince them to revoke A50?

[Harrowby Hall]

…”die in a ditch”? Oh, hang on though…

Well, it does a change from lying in front of the bulldozers working on the third Heathrow runway.

[ippy]

ippy,

You keep making the same mistake of assuming "leave vs remain" to be equivalent opposites. They're not though. "Remain" as a proposition is a set of known facts. "Leave" on the other hand was all unknowns, which is why the campaign was so important. We now know that that nothing the leave campaign said was true, and that the Johnson "deal" bears no relationship to what was promised in the prospectus (not least by Johnson himself – "there's no question of leaving the single market" etc).

That's why a second referendum is the only way out - two sets of known knowns (remain vs Johnson's deal) to decide between would be meaningful, whereas the 2016 referendum was not.

Blue, of course, you're entitled to your point of view.

Regards, ippy.

[ippy]

There you go with the unreasoning pseudo-religious fervour again. You seem to be doing your best to live up to the stereotypical unthinking leaver. I think we should remain for reasons that I'm perfectly happy to articulate and discuss, but I wouldn't "go with the devil" or pay any price for that end. You can't or won't say what's actually wrong, in any practical down-to-earth way, with the EU yet you're prepared, so it would seem, to sacrifice anything to get what you want.

You're a remainer your post is about what I would expect from a remainer, no surprises there.

Regards, ippy.

[ippy]

What is so bad about being in the EU for pity's sake? Britain is a tiny little country and needs the support of our near neighbours, we don't have any empire anymore thank goodness. Being supported by the EU is far better than being supported by that country across the pond, now that lunatic is in charge.

We'll never agree on this one LR, I suppose in some way you're right though,.

L R, you must be right where you imply the UK is lacking in the  brain power department and doesn't have the ability to survive as a tiny, little country on it's own, that is, without the big butch EU organisation holding our hand.

Regards, ippy.

[Roses]

We'll never agree on this one LR, I suppose in some way you're right though,.

L R, you must be right where you imply the UK is lacking in the  brain power department and doesn't have the ability to survive as a tiny, little country on it's own, that is, without the big butch EU organisation holding our hand.

Regards, ippy.

We have a much closer liaison with the rest of Europe than we do with other countries, so it is only sensible we stay in the EU, imo.

[jeremyp]

Like I have said and keep on saying I'm certain that leavers and remainers won't be agreeing with each other probably we'll never see eye to eye.

I see this disagreement as a total impasse so it's only right when we get this type of disagreement where tossing a coin wouldn't be right so the best solution is to have a referendum, we've done that.

The only thing that'll be giving me a bad taste in the mouth is if anyone or group were to manage a reversal of the vote, other than that I see this Brexit as something we are unlikely to ever agree about, the only feelings I have about fellow contributors to this forum is that it's such a shame you're not all leavers, attempted humour, and I still wish you all well, apart from that you can stick your remain wherever you like as long as we don't remain in that EU anymore.

As for giving you an example of general hostility it's more the tenor, the tone of posts I'm referring to, it's not that easy to nail down an example but it is there and not in my imagination, but there you go fire away.

Regards, ippy

The trouble is that you are not even making an attempt to persuade Remainers that we are wrong. I'll take that as a tacit acceptance that we are right.

You can't even tell me what new freedoms I'll enjoy, mainly because you know that there are none.

[jeremyp]

The disagreement is mostly based on remainers not accepting the result of the referendum which was for leave or remain

No it's based on Leavers being fervent cultists and Remainers being right. Losing a referendum doesn't mean you have to magically change your mind. After all, the Leavers didn't change their minds after the first referendum.

I don't see Europe as an enemy camp, they have their wants fine let them have them, we'll go our own way which will of course include getting along well with as many of the worlds countries as possible as well as the EU.

Europe isn't one country. And, by the way, we are in it.

I really don't care who's for leaving the EU, I didn't want to be in it in the first place, I voted against the EEC all of those years ago and as for ever closer union

And yet, when you lost that referendum, you didn't change your mind. Why do I have to change my mind to make it easier fore you?

so I'll almost go with the devil if it'll take us out, (yes of course if the devil existed).

That's kind of scary. You'd destroy the country just because you don't trust other Europeans.

[ippy]

No it's based on Leavers being fervent cultists and Remainers being right. Losing a referendum doesn't mean you have to magically change your mind. After all, the Leavers didn't change their minds after the first referendum.
Europe isn't one country. And, by the way, we are in it.
And yet, when you lost that referendum, you didn't change your mind. Why do I have to change my mind to make it easier fore you?
That's kind of scary. You'd destroy the country just because you don't trust other Europe

Well jp, at least I've put up a bit more windmill for you to tilt at.

Regards, ippy.

[Stranger]

You're a remainer your post is about what I would expect from a remainer, no surprises there.

Pointing out that I'm not as fanatical as you and that I'm prepared to discuss it and you're not?

[jeremyp]

Well jp, at least I've put up a bit more windmill for you to tilt at.

Regards, ippy.

If only you'd put up anything half so substantial as a windmill.