Brexit - the next steps

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I will be be, maybe, disappointing those of you that haven't read my previous posts or think I've not involved myself with your discourse enough but as I have said in my previous post:  'I have said all I want to say about the EU previously mainly on this thread, it can't be helped if you don't like it or its not enough; that's it for me'.

Please feel free to make whatever you want to make of my wish to leave the EU.

Regards to all and a merry Newton's day, regards, ippy.

It's fairly obvious from the Searching for God thread, what we will make of the fact that you can't point to any post of yours that illustrates the rational logic of your position.

My deepest commiserations to you Ippy on your indoctrination. You and Alan have a lot in common.

Kindest of regards
G

[jeremyp]

That was for example, I'll define terms; remainers - those that only wanted to remain and any debate/discussion was met with some of the following:-

a) This will be terrible so we should remain
b) It won't happen so we should remain
c) Ad hominem so we should remain
d) Political point score so we should remain.  opportunistic.

I’m sure you could find examples of b, c and d, but Remainers arguments almost entirely boil down to a and it has been terriblle so far.

Anyway, since Ippy can’t answer the question, perhaps you can. How Are you going to benefit by us leaving. How am I going to benefit?

[jakswan]

I’m sure you could find examples of b, c and d, but Remainers arguments almost entirely boil down to a and it has been terriblle so far.

Anyway, since Ippy can’t answer the question, perhaps you can. How Are you going to benefit by us leaving. How am I going to benefit?

My reasons for voting leave were that the EU did not function well democratically.

You do know we are leaving? Not sure what you hope to gain with your line of questioning, is it a bit of political point scoring?

[Harrowby Hall]

My reasons for voting leave were that the EU did not function well democratically.

Neither does the United Kingdom.  Do you suggest we should leave that, too?

[jakswan]

Neither does the United Kingdom.  Do you suggest we should leave that, too?

Scotland thinks so.

[jeremyp]

My reasons for voting leave were that the EU did not function well democratically.

Was that it? Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on the fact that the UK does not function well democratically? Or perhaps try to fix the problems with the EU? Which, by the way, were exaggerated by thew Leave Campaign.

You do know we are leaving? Not sure what you hope to gain with your line of questioning, is it a bit of political point scoring?

I still want to know how it's going to benefit me. I'm having to give up a number of freedoms for Brexit. I want to know what the plus side is going to be. The fact that it is definitely happening now makes me more interested to find out. At the moment, the way the Brexiteers are evading answering the question makes me think that they don't know of any benefits, which leads me to the further question: why on Earth are we doing this?

[SusanDoris]

Was that it? Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on the fact that the UK does not function well democratically? Or perhaps try to fix the problems with the EU? Which, by the way, were exaggerated by thew Leave Campaign.

I don't think any group or country anywhere actually functions even nearly completely democratically. However, the system that we have had here for most of the last hundred years or so works. It's not that it  ain't broke so don't fix it, but the fault areas that can be fixed need to be thought through more carefully than, for example, Brexit and carried through gradually, not too quickly.
-

I still want to know how it's going to benefit me. I'm having to give up a number of freedoms for Brexit. I want to know what the plus side is going to be. The fact that it is definitely happening now makes me more interested to find out. At the moment, the way the Brexiteers are evading answering the question makes me think that they don't know of any benefits, which leads me to the further question: why on Earth are we doing this?

Because of the referendum vote and the election result, I am firmly on the side now that the leaving must take place. It will mean some major setbacks, but at least in years to come when Europe is once more a unit, it will have greater stability. I shall not be here to see it, though.

[jakswan]

Was that it? Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on the fact that the UK does not function well democratically? Or perhaps try to fix the problems with the EU? Which, by the way, were exaggerated by the Leave Campaign.

Those were options but thought we would have a more accountable government if we left.

[/quote]
I still want to know how it's going to benefit me. I'm having to give up a number of freedoms for Brexit. I want to know what the plus side is going to be. The fact that it is definitely happening now makes me more interested to find out. At the moment, the way the Brexiteers are evading answering the question makes me think that they don't know of any benefits, which leads me to the further question: why on Earth are we doing this?
[/quote]

There might not be any benefit to you, there was a democratic vote and you lost, in a democracy the majority rules.

You can now campaign for softer Brexit or rejoin, if you can persuade the majority to your POV then that is what will happen.

I didn't find your arguments persuasive, I was trying to encourage you and others to get behind Norway+, clearly I failed to do that in time.

[Harrowby Hall]

There might not be any benefit to you, there was a democratic vote and you lost, in a democracy the majority rules.

Where does democracy end and mob rule begin?

[Enki]

Where does democracy end and mob rule begin?

I voted in the 1975 referendum as to whether we continue to be part of the EC. I listened to both sides of the debate, and eventually voted 'No'. The 'nos' lost and I was willing to accept this, (although I had misgivings) because it was a democratic vote. Over the years since, I have seen many things which have led me to become disillusioned with how the EC, which later became the EU, operates. I was given no chance of another referendum after the Treaties of Maastricht and Lisbon, and I was willing to accept that(albeit reluctantly) because it was our democratically elected government who decided that no referendum was called for.

Hence, when the opportunity to take part in the 2016 Referendum came along, I listened to the arguments on both sides and came to the conclusion that I should vote 'leave', mainly because, like jackswan, I see democratic inputs as having less clout within the EU than outside it. The 'remain' vote lost and I was and am willing to accept it.

Incidentally, I have never voted Conservative in my life. In this last election I took the trouble to vote, and simply  put 'None of the above'.

I don't consider myself to be part of any mob, whether you think I am or not. I am happy to respect those who voted to 'remain' and accept that there are arguments that can be made in favour of remaining in the EU. For me, they simply aren't enough to convince me that I voted wrongly.

[jeremyp]

I am firmly on the side now that the leaving must take place. It will mean some major setbacks.

I honestly don't understand that attitude. If there was a democratic vote to wind up the NHS and make us all buy American style health insurance would you get behind it? Spoiler: it already happened.

[jeremyp]

There might not be any benefit to you

Finally, a Brexiteer who is prepared to be honest.

So who is going to benefit from leaving the EU?

there was a democratic vote and you lost, in a democracy the majority rules.

In a democracy there is freedom of thought and freedom of speech. In a democracy telling people to shut up because they lost is not a valid course of action.

[Dicky Underpants]

There might not be any benefit to you, there was a democratic vote and you lost, in a democracy the majority rules.

I think Philomena Cunk and Billy Shitpeas have summed up the argument on that one.

[Harrowby Hall]

Thank you for your thoughtful response, Enki.

My question - following the response of jakswan caused me to consider his expression "in a democracy the majority rules". We have a situation where, in an incompetently organised referendum, delivered for purely party management purposes, almost two-thirds of the electorate did not support the outcome for which a very narrow majority of those actually voting determined - and that outcome was, in effect, undefined.

In the UK, referenda are very rare. In countries which do rely on referenda for policy development an absolute majority is usually required.

The 2016 referendum did not define what it meant by withdrawal from the EU nor has this become clear since. We now have the spectacle of a prime minister - elected to this role by party activists - adopting a populist stance, aided by a popular press largely owned by a small number of very rich individuals who appear to be concerned with protecting their own wealth. The prime minister also appears to have no real understanding of the consequences of leaving the EU - he is being instructed in his actions by an unelected advisor.  Shortly before the general election which ensured his majority in the House of Commons, the prime minister ejected from his party a number of MPs who did not support his approach.

To me, this behaviour appears to be departing from "democracy" and to be verging on the kind of situation that Germany enjoyed in the early 1930s.

[jakswan]

Where does democracy end and mob rule begin?

You don't understand how those two differ?

[jakswan]

Finally, a Brexiteer who is prepared to be honest.

All of them are dishonest?

So who is going to benefit from leaving the EU?

I think we will have a more accountable government, so we will all benefit from that.

In a democracy there is freedom of thought and freedom of speech.

Captain O.

In a democracy telling people to shut up because they lost is not a valid course of action.

Misrepresentation, at no point did I tell you to shut up. Being dishonest whilst suggesting that almost all Brexiteer's are not... #hypocrite

I encouraged you to now engage with the topic of 'EU/UK future relationship'.

[SteveH]

Where does democracy end and mob rule begin?

In ancient Greece, "democracy" meant "mob rule". It was a derogatory word only.

[jakswan]

delivered for purely party management purposes,

Wrong, the EU Referendum Bill passed through Parliament with support from most parties.

To me, this behaviour appears to be departing from "democracy" and to be verging on the kind of situation that Germany enjoyed in the early 1930s.

Come off it, the referendum was supported by most parties, the LibDems were the first mainstream party to campaign for one. The government spent taxpayers money saying they would act on the result.

Three years later our elected representatives could not reach a consensus on what to do next, so another election was called. That election was won and the winners were very clear on what they would do. 

The remain side gambled Norway+ for another referendum, the bet lost.

[ippy]

Gabriella, you sent this lot in my direction:

'It's fairly obvious from the Searching for God thread, what we will make of the fact that you can't point to any post of yours that illustrates the rational logic of your position'.

I did give a couple of reasons on this thread, reasons where I think each one on its own, was enough for me to want to leave the EU, I doubt you would agree with me about either one of them but that's not important now and it no longer matters.

Regards and happy Newtons day to you Gabriella, ippy.

[Harrowby Hall]

In ancient Greece, "democracy" meant "mob rule". It was a derogatory word only.

Tripe. In ancient Greece "democracy" was an acceptable system of government.

What were not acceptable were tyranny, oligarchy, and ochlocracy - or mob rule.

[jeremyp]

All of them are dishonest?

None of them before you have been prepared to admit that I won't one better off. Just look at Ippy's posts overt the past few months. He's been assiduous in avoiding telling me that. In fact, he's been assiduous in avoiding telling anybody how they will benefit.

I think we will have a more accountable government, so we will all benefit from that.

We'll have the same government as we've always had. The major difference is that that government no longer has any say in how the largest trading bloc in the World is run.

Captain O.

Not to there Brexiteers apparently.

Misrepresentation, at no point did I tell you to shut up. Being dishonest whilst suggesting that almost all Brexiteer's are not... #hypocrite

Telling people they lost the referendum so suck it up is not telling people to shut up? I think it is.

'EU/UK future relationship'.

You may not have noticed, but we've destroyed that.

[jeremyp]

Wrong, the EU Referendum Bill passed through Parliament with support from most parties.

What's that got to do with why the Tories proposed it in the first place?

If parliament at the time had had a crystal ball to see into the next three years, it would not have passed.

The remain side gambled Norway+ for another referendum, the bet lost.

Brexiteers are gambling with our lives. We've all lost.

[Aruntraveller]

I think we will have a more accountable government, so we will all benefit from that.

I trust you have taken note of the new government particularly the PM and his advisor in chief. If you think they are going to be more accountable, then quite frankly you are one or two sandwiches short of a picnic.

[SusanDoris]

What's that got to do with why the Tories proposed it in the first place?

If parliament at the time had had a crystal ball to see into the next three years, it would not have passed.
Brexiteers are gambling with our lives. We've all lost.

I agree with that last comment of course. However, what do you think should be said or explained to the leave voters if the decision to leave is somehow overturned?
That is the point I come down at the moment on the side of leaving, in spite of the obvious consequences. It does, of course, help to have not that many years left.

[Harrowby Hall]

Regards and happy Newtons day to you

You are as wrong about this as you are about the EU, Ippy.

Isaac Newton was born in 1642 - under the JUlian calendar.  Under the Gregorian calendar his birthday is 15 December.