Brexit - the next steps

[Stranger]

I think we will have a more accountable government, so we will all benefit from that.

This is a joke, yes?

Boris the Liar is trying to make the government less accountable. Trying to stop the poor and disadvantaged from voting in the next election by introducing voter ID to "combat fraud" that is virtually non-existent. Promising the "review" human rights, judicial review, and the role of the supreme court...

[jeremyp]

I agree with that last comment of course. However, what do you think should be said or explained to the leave voters if the decision to leave is somehow overturned?

Democracy in action.

[SusanDoris]

Democracy in action.

Under what circumstances though could this come about fairly - and democratically, do you think?

[Harrowby Hall]

How democratic was the result of the earlier referendum, SD?

[SusanDoris]

How democratic was the result of the earlier referendum, SD?

Impossible to answer, but in any case, the number of people who actually voted  leave was greater than those who voted to remain. What excuse would there be now for simply overturning it? There would have to be a clearand acceptable reason for telling that majority they were going to be ignored.

[Enki]

Thank you for your thoughtful response, Enki.

My question - following the response of jakswan caused me to consider his expression "in a democracy the majority rules". We have a situation where, in an incompetently organised referendum, delivered for purely party management purposes, almost two-thirds of the electorate did not support the outcome for which a very narrow majority of those actually voting determined - and that outcome was, in effect, undefined.

In the UK, referenda are very rare. In countries which do rely on referenda for policy development an absolute majority is usually required.

The 2016 referendum did not define what it meant by withdrawal from the EU nor has this become clear since. We now have the spectacle of a prime minister - elected to this role by party activists - adopting a populist stance, aided by a popular press largely owned by a small number of very rich individuals who appear to be concerned with protecting their own wealth. The prime minister also appears to have no real understanding of the consequences of leaving the EU - he is being instructed in his actions by an unelected advisor.  Shortly before the general election which ensured his majority in the House of Commons, the prime minister ejected from his party a number of MPs who did not support his approach.

To me, this behaviour appears to be departing from "democracy" and to be verging on the kind of situation that Germany enjoyed in the early 1930s.

Hope you had a pleasant Xmas, Harrowby.  Sorry for not responding sooner, but, at last, I've had time to get to the computer!

I hear what you say but I simply do not agree with many of your assumptions.

 
I voted for withdrawal from the EU and because of the closeness of the result fully expect some sort of compromise but which, nevertheless, would necessarily include withdrawal from the EU.

There had been momentum building for a referendum for a long time. In my opinion it was long overdue.

Most political leaders in this country are mainly elected by party activists. I fail to see the significance of your statement therefore.

The word 'populist' for me means the idea of the 'people' in contrast to those who seek to think of themselves as the 'elite'. Indeed, for me, what is happening in Hong Kong at the moment could easily be called a populist movement. Alternatively, if you seek to use the term pejoratively, I would suggest all the main political parties were 'populist' in their messages. That is one reason why I spoilt my ballot paper in the GE. Personally I would not use such a word, because it is simply so ambiguous in its connotations.

I'm not sure why you pick out Boris Johnson as having unelected advisors. I would assume that most parliamentary leaders and prime ministers have had such advisors. How they conduct their political affairs with reference to these advisors is a matter of conjecture and debate.

Whether one agrees or not with the purging of rebels within the Tory Party, I do not see this as a reason to think that we are verging on the situation in Germany in the 1930s.

[jakswan]

None of them before you have been prepared to admit that I won't one better off. Just look at Ippy's posts overt the past few months. He's been assiduous in avoiding telling me that. In fact, he's been assiduous in avoiding telling anybody how they will benefit.

So one person.

Telling people they lost the referendum so suck it up is not telling people to shut up? I think it is.

If I had said 'suck it up' then I apologise in advance. If not you are demonstrably dishonest and a hypocrite. 

You may not have noticed, but we've destroyed that. (UK-EU relationship)

There will be a EU-UK relationship I'm trying to find out why people like you don't seem to want to get involved in discussing what that will be.

Currently you sound like someone who spat their dummy out and are taking their ball home.

[jakswan]

What's that got to do with why the Tories proposed it in the first place?

HH claimed the EU referendum was 'delivered for purely party management purposes (Tory)', if this was the case why was it supported by many mainstream political parties?

#fake_news

If parliament at the time had had a crystal ball to see into the next three years, it would not have passed.

[/quote]

Maybe so what?

Brexiteers are gambling with our lives. We've all lost.

Yes everything is a gamble, e.g. you were gambling with the way you debated the topic, I think you felt better but you played a role in the result.

My original point remains unchallenged, many remainers gambled on another referendum and the price they paid was Norway+.

[jakswan]

I trust you have taken note of the new government particularly the PM and his advisor in chief. If you think they are going to be more accountable, then quite frankly you are one or two sandwiches short of a picnic.

I've tried before with you, one last time.... if you socialist types want to win, the level of debate needs to get a little bit beyond calling people names.

[Aruntraveller]

I've tried before with you, one last time.... if you socialist types want to win, the level of debate needs to get a little bit beyond calling people names.

So I apologise for calling you names (like you've never done that), but can you address this question then. Do you think that Boris Johnson's government is going to be more or less accountable to the UK public as a result of leaving the EU?

[ippy]

You are as wrong about this as you are about the EU, Ippy.

Isaac Newton was born in 1642 - under the JUlian calendar.  Under the Gregorian calendar his birthday is 15 December.

As I've often referred to where remain and leave sides of Brexit are very unlikely to ever agree about the EU.

I don't know the precise details of the 25th Dec for Newtons birthday, but I have often heard it said that the 25th Dec's not supposed to be the correct date for the birthday of your religions originator whatever it is you want to call him, but then again this is of no interest to me and when the lack of evidence makes it so unlikely to have any consequences for myself or anyone else either, come to that, it's hardly worth bothering your head about H H.

However we might as well celebrate Newtons day on the 25th Dec at least we know for certain he did exist and his work of genius he contributed to the world deserves a lot more celebration and respect, for me it certainly beats the view of those that virtually seem to enjoy pretending they're walking around on their knuckles just because they're so steeped in the mystic, magic and superstitional reaches of the past and even far more backward primitive pre bronze age times.

Regards, ippy.   

[jeremyp]

Under what circumstances though could this come about fairly - and democratically, do you think?

Who cares about fair. We need to do what’s right.

[jeremyp]

If I had said 'suck it up' then I apologise in advance. If not you are demonstrably dishonest and a hypocrite. 

it’s what your post implied. If you are going to be pedantic, and claim you didn’t say it, I’ll play the same game and point out I never mentioned you.

There will be a EU-UK relationship I'm trying to find out why people like you don't seem to want to get involved in discussing what that will be.

We screwed them and turned our backs on them. What do you think our relationship is going to be like?

Currently you sound like someone who spat their dummy out

Currently you sound like somebody who can’t justify his position and so are resorting to invective.

[jeremyp]

HH claimed the EU referendum was 'delivered for purely party management purposes (Tory)', if this was the case why was it supported by many mainstream political parties?

What makes you think something done for party management purposes can't be supported by other parties?

#fake_news

Are you seriously trying to use the Trump defence? I thought better of you.

[jeremyp]

I've tried before with you, one last time.... if you socialist types want to win, the level of debate needs to get a little bit beyond calling people names.

What? You mean like writing #fakenews? Is that the level of debate you aspire to?

[Harrowby Hall]

I don't know the precise details of the 25th Dec for Newtons birthday, but I have often heard it said that the 25th Dec's not supposed to be the correct date for the birthday of your religions originator whatever it is you want to call him, but then again this is of no interest to me and when the lack of evidence makes it so unlikely to have any consequences for myself or anyone else either, come to that, it's hardly worth bothering your head about H H.
Regards, ippy.

This has nothing to do with the supposed birth of J. Christ.  If you had bothered to read my post you might have noticed the words Julian and Gregorian, but perhaps I may have assumed that you are better informed about events in England in the 17th and 18th centuries than is the case.

Isaac Newton was born in Woolsthorpe-by-Colsterworth, a few miles south of Grantham, on 25 December in 1642. In 1752 the Gregorian calendar was introduced to England. What, do you think the immediate consequence of that change was?

[Walter]

What? You mean like writing #fakenews? Is that the level of debate you aspire to?

Jezza,

if you feel so strongly why not stand for parliament . That way you can either piss or get off the fuckin pot !

[jakswan]

So I apologise for calling you names (like you've never done that), but can you address this question then. Do you think that Boris Johnson's government is going to be more or less accountable to the UK public as a result of leaving the EU?

Calling my names never a problem, it just came across that only insult was in your post. I think I might have got that wrong, so I apologise.

All future UK governments will be more accountable since anything controlled by the EU will now be controlled by the UK government.

This is one of the main arguments supporters of Scottish independence use, you might not find it compelling but it is a valid argument.

[jakswan]

it’s what your post implied. If you are going to be pedantic, and claim you didn’t say it, I’ll play the same game and point out I never mentioned you.

a) My post suggested you engage with the topic of future EU-UK relationship.
b) You quoted me!

We screwed them and turned our backs on them. What do you think our relationship is going to be like?

So there will still be an EU-UK relationship, but you think it is going to be bad. So wouldn't it better to campaign for a closer relationship?

Currently you sound like somebody who can’t justify his position and so are resorting to invective.

I don't need to justify my position, I've explained my position and invited you to debate the future relationship.

[jakswan]

What makes you think something done for party management purposes can't be supported by other parties?

'delivered for PURELY party management purposes (Tory)',

It is a fair comment if it is written from Cameron's perspective, but I don't think opposition MP's voted for the referendum for this reason. 

[Harrowby Hall]

'delivered for PURELY party management purposes (Tory)',

It is a fair comment if it is written from Cameron's perspective, but I don't think opposition MP's voted for the referendum for this reason.

What do opposition MPs ever vote for? Under the UK's distortion of parliamentary democracy they are only there to provide background noise.

[Enki]

What do opposition MPs ever vote for? Under the UK's distortion of parliamentary democracy they are only there to provide background noise.

It seems to me that over the last 3 years opposition MPs have voted both for and against all sorts of motions associated with Brexit, especially when aided by rebels from the Tory Party, and with a great deal of success. The result has been a parliament which simply ceased to function properly.

[ippy]

This has nothing to do with the supposed birth of J. Christ.  If you had bothered to read my post you might have noticed the words Julian and Gregorian, but perhaps I may have assumed that you are better informed about events in England in the 17th and 18th centuries than is the case.



Isaac Newton was born in Woolsthorpe-by-Colsterworth, a few miles south of Grantham, on 25 December in 1642. In 1752 the Gregorian calendar was introduced to England. What, do you think the immediate consequence of that change was?

I'm aware of various calendar changes altering the count of time events, that would apply equally to Newton or to all sorts of other birth dates fictitious or otherwise.

Newton's birthday could be celebrated any time wished but I think it might be better to celebrate something that is a proven great works of a truly great individual that really did exist, regardless of the consequences of any passing of time measurement alterations.

Regards, ippy.

[Harrowby Hall]

It seems to me that over the last 3 years opposition MPs have voted both for and against all sorts of motions associated with Brexit, especially when aided by rebels from the Tory Party, and with a great deal of success. The result has been a parliament which simply ceased to function properly.

The parliamentary model used at Westminster is probably about 200 years old. It functions because the FPTP model encourages just two blocs of interest in the House of Commons - Her Majesty's Government and Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. The Oppositions job is merely to oppose. Because the election system practically eliminates other varying views we end up with a system that is practically totalitarian - except that every five years the opportunity is given for the other side to play dictator for a while.

Surely, the rational way for a modern state to be governed is by a representative assembly trying to achieve objectives by argument and co-operation - not by steamrolling over a single impotent opposing voice. Let us have a new Parliament building which doesn't try to imitate medieval church choir stalls and fill it by using a voting system which permits a variety of voices to be heard and decisions to be obtained by consensus.

And as for a "parliament which simply ceased to function properly" - when did we ever have one of those?

[jakswan]

The parliamentary model ..

Agree it needs reform, but you have to play to the rules at the time.

My point is that if the remain side, many of whom voted for and supported a referendum, had accepted the result they had the numbers to do Norway+.

They split and some gambled on another referendum.